Egypt

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
Forge.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Forge. » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:23 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Forge. wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote: The workers.
when did people start being "workers"?

to me that's as bad as "consumers" or even "useless eaters"
There are the following groups of people in the world

Capitalists - they own big companies

Middle class - they own small businesses, or they are professionals such as a lawyer or doctor. I would not include junior doctors or most teachers.

Workers - people who are employed, or who want to be.

Peasants - small farmers in counties that are not fully modernised. They are largely subsistence farmers, though some are comparatively wealthy.

This is how Marx defined classes and these definitions are still used, including by serious commentators allied to the capitalist class and sociologists.
what a total load of shit. I have no interest in being included in any of those categories, and I'm sure there's plenty of your millions and billions who don't either.

In fact that language is for people who see themselves in the upper part of that and want to rule over other people so they label them as workers or peasants to make themselves feel better about exploiting them. It implies that it's some kind of natural order to things that everyone should happily fit into. Like Huxley's Alphas, betas, Deltas and Gammas - notice how there's also 4 groups there? That's no co-incidence.

The only thing I agree with about the "150 years" bit is that terminology belongs 150 years ago, not in 2013

Nobody talks like that any more unless they spend all their time reading 150 year old marxist bollocks. No offense personally.

I think 99% and 1% are the only categories we need here and now: Normal people, and the parasitic predators who live off of them.

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:37 pm

Sorry to disappoint you, Forge, but it works like that since at least 500 years. After Industrial Revolution it's even worse and this marxist classification is still valid. In the U.S.A. this division among classes is even more explicit, because they have only the "rich" (a bunch of ultramillionaire capitalists) and the "poor" (the vast majority of population). Besides, they had slavery, which ended in '900. In Europe, thanks to social-democracy and so-called "social state", this classification is not so plain, but still valid. In the rest of the capitalistic world things work like that. In China things are worse than ever, since they are trying to mix both stalinism and capitalism for profit: very dangerous (even if not so dangerous as the U.S.A. are).
Last edited by myrnova on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jack McOck
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Re: Egypt

Post by Jack McOck » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:43 pm

Forge. wrote:In fact that language is for people who see themselves in the upper part of that and want to rule over other people so they label them as workers or peasants to make themselves feel better about exploiting them. It implies that it's some kind of natural order to things that everyone should happily fit into. Like Huxley's Alphas, betas, Deltas and Gammas - notice how there's also 4 groups there? That's no co-incidence.
Marx: defending the status quo since 150 years ago.

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:45 pm

Jack McOck wrote:
Forge. wrote:In fact that language is for people who see themselves in the upper part of that and want to rule over other people so they label them as workers or peasants to make themselves feel better about exploiting them. It implies that it's some kind of natural order to things that everyone should happily fit into. Like Huxley's Alphas, betas, Deltas and Gammas - notice how there's also 4 groups there? That's no co-incidence.
Marx: defending the status quo since 150 years ago.
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Forge.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Forge. » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:07 pm

myrnova wrote:Sorry to disappoint you, Forge, but it works like that since at least 500 years. After Industrial Revolution it's even worse and this marxist classification is still valid. In the U.S.A. this division among classes is even more explicit, because they have only the "rich" (a bunch of ultramillionaire capitalists) and the "poor" (the vast majority of population). Besides, they had slavery, which ended in '900. In Europe, thanks to social-democracy and so-called "social state", this classification is not so plain, but still valid. In the rest of the capitalistic world things work like that. In China things are worse than ever, since they are trying to mix both stalinism and capitalism for profit: very dangerous (even if not so dangerous as the U.S.A. are).
it's funny... in this little self important world you have set up for yourself you keep thinking people will be disappointed by these home truths everyone but you is too stupid too see, but sorry to disappoint you but nothing you say disappoints me, except maybe when you continue typing negative shit so I have to scroll past it.

I skip most of what you say now anyway as you can't seem to make a single post without insulting someone and seem to see this forum as an outlet for all your pent up rage and bitterness.

Anyway, I see the social structure of all human society as an elaborate system of school bullies stealing other kid's lunch money. Feudalism is a more complex version of basically that, and the neo-feudalism we are morphing into now is too.

All I'm having a problem with is Funken's strange insistence on talking about this silly imaginary group called "the workers" and this obsession with a mid-19th C German philosopher. Marx didn't live in the 21st century, he didn't have the internet or credit cards or air travel, or much of anything relevant to life in 2013 at all really so I really fail to see the relevance to any of the things we talk about at all.
Last edited by Forge. on Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Forge.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Forge. » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:20 pm

myrnova wrote: In the U.S.A. this division among classes is even more explicit, because they have only the "rich" (a bunch of ultramillionaire capitalists) and the "poor" (the vast majority of population). .
BTW - isn't this exactly what I said? Except I used 99% and 1%

Are you trying to say that we should split the 99% into middle, workers and peasants?

Who is a peasant now? Am I one? I certainly earn fuck all money, but I'm typing on my macbook pro on a music software internet forum.. doesn't feel very peasanty to me. Both my parents have degrees and I'm about to start a masters, so wouldn't that make us middle class? but we've always been poor so would that make us peasants or workers?

And doesn't everyone work anyway?

It's a total bullshit out of date classification system and you are agreeing and pretending you disagree just so you could make your little arrogant "sorry to disappoint you" fantasy comment.

Forge.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Forge. » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:32 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:Forge, what you are saying is nonsense. You seriously can't see any difference between an impoverished Indian trying to feed his kids by growing a few plants, living off 50p a day, and a factory manager on £100,000, or a factory worker.
No funken, you are not normally talking about this in relation to an impoverished Indian. You talk about this all the time and it's usually in a conversation about the state of affairs in our own culture. Nobody in the UK/US/Europe/Australia earns 50p a day

and like I just added in the post you might have missed because it was just before this — I am used to living on or below the poverty line yet I am into music technology with my hi-tech toys, on a macbook pro, on a music software forum, and all of my immediate family have degrees - where do we fit in that?

Surely the degrees make us middle class? but we are mostly poor - are we peasants or workers?

I mean seriously, who have you ever even met who qualifies as workers or peasants?

it's just silly.

It's Rich or poor, 1% and 99%, and the gap between the poorest and what used to be middle class is getting smaller all the time, while the gap between us and the rich grows.

And in fact even India has more middle class than the entire US, UK, Australia, Canada, Italy and Switzerland all put together

it just doesn't even remotely make any sense at all to be talking about shit that was written in 1848, especially not touting it as some kind of sure fire guide to utopia

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:27 pm

Forge. wrote:it just doesn't even remotely make any sense at all to be talking about shit that was written in 1848
:lol:

andydes
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Re: Egypt

Post by andydes » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:42 pm

It's true in "developed" world, we no longer have the majority toiling the fields or working in factories. It's all middle management and service sector now.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

I'm technical middle class, apparently. Which sounds right, being a techy and all.

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:55 pm

andydes wrote:It's true in "developed" world, we no longer have the majority toiling the fields or working in factories. It's all middle management and service sector now.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

I'm technical middle class, apparently. Which sounds right, being a techy and all.
?! 8O

In which world you live?! :lol:

Most of people ARE workers. Only, they have no rights anymore thanks to U.S. so-called "globalization" policy. For instance, here we have only part-time jobs, monthly contracts, etc. We call it "the new slavery". It's like coming back to 1800. Thank you, yankees! :mrgreen:

regretfullySaid
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Re: Egypt

Post by regretfullySaid » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:00 pm

You're welcome.
ImageImage

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:01 pm

Image

:roll:

regretfullySaid
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Re: Egypt

Post by regretfullySaid » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:04 pm

Agreed.
ImageImage

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:06 pm

Image

:roll:

:lol:

myrnova
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Re: Egypt

Post by myrnova » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:10 pm

Image

8O :roll:

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