Unintended Consequences: Swiss Edition

[nathannn]

Can you burn trash in your back yard in Switzerland? I doubt you can in the city but at one point in time im also sure people were burning their crap in the back yard/garden. Then along came a law that said 'stop burning your shit, put your shit into bags' now they just need to get rid of the bag law. They could word the new law like this 'stop throwing your unsorted shit into bags, you hillbillys need to sort this shit and throw it in these bins'.

Its so simple, I should rule this world.

[Jack McOck]

And I believe I have already given you my endorsement:

"...I'd just like to say, here and now, with all ye present to bear witness, that I believe in Nathann. And more importantly, that I believe in what he can do for this country." (viewtopic.php?f=40&t=195091&p=1529889&h ... n#p1529889)

[re:dream]

I wonder. Is this the stuff that right wing discourse is made of? Half-represented facts, exaggeration, silly jibes? I must say I am disappointed.

[Jack McOck]

I wonder. Is this the stuff that right wing discourse is made of? Half-represented facts, exaggeration, silly jibes? I must say I am disappointed.

Why not wander over to the Mr. King thread

[re:dream]

I will pass, thank you.

[Machinesworking]

No strawmen, those evil socialist puppeteers are real. I've even met a few in person. The rest of what you say is valid enough, although I have also met a few politicians who genuinely believe that lala-land is attainable if we could just reprogram human nature.

This is what I always find interesting about the whole anti government stance. Sure, human nature is going to cause problems like corruption in politics, slovenly government employees and ridiculous wasteful laws and programs to try to get people to do various actions etc. but the opposite is also the case, corporations left to their own devices will act with as maliciously monkey like behavior, Enron causing rolling blackouts in California, the loosening of regulations on mortgages that allowed for the wholesale buying and selling of mortgages in quick money deals etc. Both extremes (corporate or governmental control) have historically resulted in the average person suffering, (the extremely rich and poor aren't really affected by this stuff), so again, there has to be balance.

You live in a country with one of the highest standards of living and the highest 'quality of life measurements in the world, always in the top ten. So I'm not sure where the problem is?

[re:dream]

Yes, that's sort of the issue.

If you read Jack McCock's post, you might be forgiven for thinking that swiss waste management policy is an example of how dirigiste leftly planners get things wrong and make matters worse.

Actually, the interesting thing about Swiss waste management policy is how well it is working. They are generally taxed up the wazoo for waste disposal, a complex system of incentives is in place, and the result is a system in which something like 75% of recyclables get recycled and they have done away with landfills. Now in South Africa we can but dream of such outcomes.

But try to engage with Mr McCock about that. He will reiterate his views, edit your responses, and call that 'argument'

[Forge.]

No strawmen, those evil socialist puppeteers are real. I've even met a few in person. The rest of what you say is valid enough, although I have also met a few politicians who genuinely believe that lala-land is attainable if we could just reprogram human nature.

This is what I always find interesting about the whole anti government stance. Sure, human nature is going to cause problems like corruption in politics, slovenly government employees and ridiculous wasteful laws and programs to try to get people to do various actions etc. but the opposite is also the case, corporations left to their own devices will act with as maliciously monkey like behavior, Enron causing rolling blackouts in California, the loosening of regulations on mortgages that allowed for the wholesale buying and selling of mortgages in quick money deals etc. Both extremes (corporate or governmental control) have historically resulted in the average person suffering, (the extremely rich and poor aren't really affected by this stuff), so again, there has to be balance.

You live in a country with one of the highest standards of living and the highest 'quality of life measurements in the world, always in the top ten. So I'm not sure where the problem is?

I've been thinking a lot lately about just what a good balance we seem to have here in Australia right now, mainly because we have an election coming up and until the recent leader coup it was looking like lurching back to a right wing government who will almost certainly cut all the things that benefit the people who need it most while giving themselves a pay rise, and undoing any progress made on climate change, environment or education, just like the right wing government of my state has and the Tories in the UK have.

But we actually seem to have it in a pretty good state right now.

Granted, I probably wouldn't be saying that if I was Aboriginal, but just like the native Americans that's not an easy problem to solve, because they had tens of thousands of years of getting everything they needed from the land they were living on and only taking what they actually needed, then suddenly some unscrupulous white people came along and told them that not only did they no longer belong to the earth, but the entire earth itself belonged to some king they'd never heard of on the other side of the planet and his cronies would murder them with far superior weapons to their own if they didn't just shut up and comply, and they have been ever since trying to even get their heads around the insane kind of greed that can twist people into actually thinking they own the land that gives them life and killing millions of buffalo instead of 2.

So yeah, I might be a "commie" or "socialist" or whatever, but I tend to think the whole thing is set up to fail because it's based on people "owning" something that never actually can or will belong to them in real terms that they can't take with them when they die.

[Jack McOck]

You live in a country with one of the highest standards of living and the highest 'quality of life measurements in the world, always in the top ten. So I'm not sure where the problem is?

One of the reasons that Switzerland is doing so well is that we are one of the only countries to have a semi-direct system of democracy, which allows us to at least slow down the government's totalitarian machine. People adapt to new situations faster than you'd think, so it's important to remain vigilant about this sort of fascist bullshit. Otherwise, it becomes the norm.

Congrats, you've derailed this thread.

[Jack McOck]

So yeah, I might be a "commie" or "socialist" or whatever, but I tend to think the whole thing is set up to fail because it's based on people "owning" something that never actually can or will belong to them in real terms that they can't take with them when they die.

I know only of one or two people who could take there socks with them into heaven. So long as you have socks on your feet, you're not a communist. Unless you're David Cameron.

[Forge.]

So yeah, I might be a "commie" or "socialist" or whatever, but I tend to think the whole thing is set up to fail because it's based on people "owning" something that never actually can or will belong to them in real terms that they can't take with them when they die.

I know only of one or two people who could take there socks with them into heaven. So long as you have socks on your feet, you're not a communist. Unless you're David Cameron.

http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/07/15/t ... arliement/

[Forge.]

You live in a country with one of the highest standards of living and the highest 'quality of life measurements in the world, always in the top ten. So I'm not sure where the problem is?

One of the reasons that Switzerland is doing so well is that we are one of the only countries to have a semi-direct system of democracy, which allows us to at least slow down the government's totalitarian machine. People adapt to new situations faster than you'd think, so it's important to remain vigilant about this sort of fascist bullshit. Otherwise, it becomes the norm.

Congrats, you've derailed this thread.

^misquote

[Jack McOck]

Sorry, wrong mult. Fixed.

[Forge.]

Sorry, wrong mult. Fixed.

are you implying that the logic of your argument is so sound and tight that 2 different people couldn't possibly disagree?

[andydes]

Blimey jack,

Of all the crazy shit in the world, you pick some pretty minor things to campaign about.

Everything we do has consequences. Like when we buy a smartphone completely unaware that it contains tin mined by children on bangka. Or when a cost cutting company adds extra stories to a building disregarding planning laws, which then collapses killing a thousand underpaid workers.

This is the world of inadequate regulation and laws that you seem to strive for.

I understand the desire to go back to simpler times, when people could do as they pleased without the government interfering. But the world has grown complicated and we need rules. We don't live in a prospecting town in the old west and we don't live in Sherwood forest hiding from the sheriff.