who is actually going to fall for obama care

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Machinesworking
Posts: 11105
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:34 pm

rote fahne wrote:i will never trust germans. never.
One of the most bigoted statements I've read on these forums, congratulations.
Why are you using their software then? You are in effect in a German house right now.

Seriously you two crawl so far down the same dammed hole I believe starts every war.
Most of the time, people/nations start war because they think they've identified a source of evil; of course they are just trying to make themselves feel better, and get more power.
Hitler didn't see himself as evil, he saw other races as evil.

In the USA people mostly see the wars as a reaction to terrorism. The concept of terrorism as an unorganized under equipped army in reaction to an injustice is mostly ignored in favor of religious fanaticism being the reason for Al Qaeda/terrorist attacks etc. The reason for that is simple really, it's the same reason people like you think that the USA is the only reason for injustice in the world. It's easy and common for members of a gang to point fingers at the biggest most obvious bully and claim he is the reason they were all raping the girl. They will talk about his rise to power and how he mistreated them, that they are victims of his strength and brutality. It's easier for americans to think of the Afghanis and Iraqis as fanatics rather than victims, it's easier for you and myrnova to think of the USA as like Nazi Germany, when we are mostly just like the British, French and Spanish empires. We are a typically European approach to solving foreign economic and civil disputes, conquer and instal people who depend on us for "help".

Back to the the German quote. Studies have shown that most people obey authority. This isn't a cultural thing it's a human trait. We are programmed to try to get along, to be part of a society.
Germans IMO experienced a sort of national Stockholm Syndrome when Hitler seized all power. That he got into power in the first place isn't that strange, nationalist ultra right wing conservatives have been pretty much in power around the world in various degrees of 'republican , democrat, conservative' etc. forever. The slow dissolving of human rights, and the removal of 'undesirables' was a gradual process, not overnight, and really didn't kick in to high gear until the war started, which of course they were told was a defensive war. To say 80 million are untrustworthy on a public forum run by germans, to support a german company who make a piece of software you own? well that's exactly the kind of stereotyping cultural racism that the nazis preached.

rote fahne
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by rote fahne » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:35 pm

De trol zaait onrust door mensen tegen de haren in te strijken. Zo zal een trol op een niet-rokers-forum telkens weer beginnen over hoe prettig roken is.
Ook zal een trol een bepaalde beroemdheid afkraken op de fansite van de betreffende persoon of op een politiek forum een mening geven die conflicteert met de mening van de meerderheid van de gebruikers daar.
Materiaal of meningen geven die als schokkend of confronterend ervaren kunnen worden, is ook een veelvoorkomende methode.
Meningen geven die niet van toepassing zijn op de werkelijke gedachtegoed van de poster
Ook is een gevolgde methode het uitlokken van reacties of discussies over niet ter zake doende onderwerpen.
Schijnargumenten geven, met als enkel doel de gebruikers binnen de gemeenschap opzettelijk en bewust te frustreren.
Het komt ook voor dat iemand iets beweert alsof het om een feit gaat, terwijl het in werkelijkheid een mening betreft. Dit is niet per definitie negatief, maar hoe provocerend dit kan zijn blijkt uit een voorbeeld als "AIDS is Gods straf voor homoseksuelen". Ingebracht als slogan zonder verdere nuancering, is het vrij voorspelbaar dat forumdeelnemers zich dan ergeren aan de uitgesponnen "threads" (conversatielijnen) die daarop volgen en de conversatie amper verrijken.
Trollen worden nog wel eens verward met querulanten; vaak is een trol ook een querulant. Er is echter een belangrijk verschil. De trol gaat te werk met geen ander doel dan verstoren; het trollen kan soms instrumenteel zijn om discussies te domineren en te beïnvloeden, maar voor de trol is dit slechts een bijzaak. De querulant daarentegen handelt altijd met een doel voor ogen terwijl trollen daarbij als middel worden gehanteerd.[2]
Een trol maakt bij voorkeur gebruik van argumenten die door anderen zijn gebruikt, en effectief zijn gebleken in het zaaien van onrust en onduidelijkheid. Hij zal daarbij niet vermelden dat een ander (min of meer) geciteerd wordt. Een trol keert zich nooit tegen een hele groep, behalve in een poging zichzelf als slachtoffer van een deel daarvan te presenteren. Door zich namelijk tegen een beperkt aantal personen te richten, tracht een trol die te isoleren en daarmee de aandacht af te leiden. Door tevens controleerbaar juiste uitspraken te doen of handelingen te verrichten, geeft een trol de indruk serieus bezig te zijn, terwijl het werkelijke doel van zijn acties gelegen is in het stoken van onrust en het opzetten van mensen tegen elkaar, kortom: in het zaaien van tweedracht, door middel van leugens en halve waarheden. Trollen houden van discussiëren, ook over trollen zelf, zonder inhoudelijk doel noch einde: daarom is het niet uitzonderlijk wanneer een trol (met de truc van "al wat je zegt, ben je zelf!") anderen van trollen beschuldigt.

wie de schoen past trekke hem aan.

rote fahne
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by rote fahne » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:38 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
rote fahne wrote:i will never trust germans. never.
One of the most bigoted statements I've read on these forums, congratulations.
Why are you using their software then? You are in effect in a German house right now.

Seriously you two crawl so far down the same dammed hole I believe starts every war.
Most of the time, people/nations start war because they think they've identified a source of evil; of course they are just trying to make themselves feel better, and get more power.
Hitler didn't see himself as evil, he saw other races as evil.

In the USA people mostly see the wars as a reaction to terrorism. The concept of terrorism as an unorganized under equipped army in reaction to an injustice is mostly ignored in favor of religious fanaticism being the reason for Al Qaeda/terrorist attacks etc. The reason for that is simple really, it's the same reason people like you think that the USA is the only reason for injustice in the world. It's easy and common for members of a gang to point fingers at the biggest most obvious bully and claim he is the reason they were all raping the girl. They will talk about his rise to power and how he mistreated them, that they are victims of his strength and brutality. It's easier for americans to think of the Afghanis and Iraqis as fanatics rather than victims, it's easier for you and myrnova to think of the USA as like Nazi Germany, when we are mostly just like the British, French and Spanish empires. We are a typically European approach to solving foreign economic and civil disputes, conquer and instal people who depend on us for "help".

Back to the the German quote. Studies have shown that most people obey authority. This isn't a cultural thing it's a human trait. We are programmed to try to get along, to be part of a society.
Germans IMO experienced a sort of national Stockholm Syndrome when Hitler seized all power. That he got into power in the first place isn't that strange, nationalist ultra right wing conservatives have been pretty much in power around the world in various degrees of 'republican , democrat, conservative' etc. forever. The slow dissolving of human rights, and the removal of 'undesirables' was a gradual process, not overnight, and really didn't kick in to high gear until the war started, which of course they were told was a defensive war. To say 80 million are untrustworthy on a public forum run by germans, to support a german company who make a piece of software you own? well that's exactly the kind of stereotyping cultural racism that the nazis preached.
your reaction shows how dumb you are, and that myrnova is right. the american wars are not a reaction on terrorism, terrorism was a reaction on the american wars.

and as i see you live in seatle, and i was brought up only 3 miles from the german border, while my grandmother witnessed the bombardment of rotterdam, two of my grandfathers had to work in nazi labour camps, i dont give a shit about your opinions. and i am prolly older than you too.

Jarvisimon
Posts: 762
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: England

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Jarvisimon » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:47 pm

Galt wrote: Hmmmm... socialized healthcare is inept? Color me shocked.

You can really tell a society is on the decline when they become proud of their incompetent services...
What an amazingly distorted answer.

The NHS is an excellent thing, if you live in the USA, you won't have a clue how appreciated it is by the majority of the UK population. It's only the people who are on the side of private companies think otherwise and they'll do anything to corrupt the truth.

myrnova
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:49 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Hitler didn't see himself as evil, he saw other races as evil.
Image

:roll:

myrnova
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:51 pm

Machinesworking wrote: In the USA people mostly see the wars as a reaction to terrorism.
8O :? :roll:

:lol:

"brainwashed by american war propaganda" level: 100% :lol:

rote fahne
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by rote fahne » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:57 pm

myrnova wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: In the USA people mostly see the wars as a reaction to terrorism.
8O :? :roll:

:lol:

"brainwashed by american war propaganda" level: 100% :lol:
exactly.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11105
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:09 pm

rote fahne wrote: your reaction shows how dumb you are, and that myrnova is right. the american wars are not a reaction on terrorism, terrorism was a reaction on the american wars.
First of all ad hominem attacks are useless, especially when coupled with a complete misunderstanding of what was said. I explained that most people think that terrorism is a result of religious zealotry, I wasn't talking about why terrorism existed in the first place. Terrorism is just a convenient term for a recognized army to portray partisans. One mans Boston Tea Party is another mans act of terrorism.
and as i see you live in seatle, and i was brought up only 3 miles from the german border, while my grandmother witnessed the bombardment of rotterdam, two of my grandfathers had to work in nazi labour camps, i dont give a shit about your opinions. and i am prolly older than you too.
This begs the question again. if you hate them so much why do you use their software and post on their forums?
None of what you said is any excuse for being a bigot, your age, the hell of the war, whether or not you think my opinion matters, none of it.
You basically are saying that because a country was taken over by extremists it's OK to hate all 80 million of them. This doesn't sound like wisdom to me.
It sounds precisely like the kind of reasoning that people do when they point to Hamas and suicide bombers to make excuses for why it's OK that the Gaza strip is heavily embargoed by Israel.
It's exactly the same reasoning that says suicide bombers are proof that Iraqis are better off with the US invading etc..

Machinesworking
Posts: 11105
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:11 pm

myrnova wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: In the USA people mostly see the wars as a reaction to terrorism.
8O :? :roll:

:lol:

"brainwashed by american war propaganda" level: 100% :lol:
You've said the exact same thing in one form or another, but your'e such a bigot that if I, an American says it, I must also think it. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

rote fahne
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by rote fahne » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:15 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
rote fahne wrote: your reaction shows how dumb you are, and that myrnova is right. the american wars are not a reaction on terrorism, terrorism was a reaction on the american wars.
First of all ad hominem attacks are useless, especially when coupled with a complete misunderstanding of what was said. I explained that most people think that terrorism is a result of religious zealotry, I wasn't talking about why terrorism existed in the first place. Terrorism is just a convenient term for a recognized army to portray partisans. One mans Boston Tea Party is another mans act of terrorism.
and as i see you live in seatle, and i was brought up only 3 miles from the german border, while my grandmother witnessed the bombardment of rotterdam, two of my grandfathers had to work in nazi labour camps, i dont give a shit about your opinions. and i am prolly older than you too.
This begs the question again. if you hate them so much why do you use their software and post on their forums?
None of what you said is any excuse for being a bigot, your age, the hell of the war, whether or not you think my opinion matters, none of it.
You basically are saying that because a country was taken over by extremists it's OK to hate all 80 million of them. This doesn't sound like wisdom to me.
It sounds precisely like the kind of reasoning that people do when they point to Hamas and suicide bombers to make excuses for why it's OK that the Gaza strip is heavily embargoed by Israel.
It's exactly the same reasoning that says suicide bombers are proof that Iraqis are better off with the US invading etc..
pooh, what a shitload of strawmans.

first, i never said i hate them, i said i will never trust them. i had a very good relation with a german girl for 3 years, for example, and i met a lot of nice germans, and there are a lot of nice germans, but there are a lot of nazi germans still too, so as a collective i dont trust them.

or to put even more carefull: there might be a chance in future etc. etc.

has nothing to do with their products: do you trust the chinese? pretty terrible regime they got there, dont they. and sure you got products made by them.

life is inherenct hypocritical.


btw atta was from hamburg.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11105
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:22 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Most of the time, people/nations start war because they think they've identified a source of evil; of course they are just trying to make themselves feel better, and get more power.
Hitler didn't see himself as evil, he saw other races as evil.
I think wars are mostly started over resources and power, which are ultimately just means to making profit. War is an extension of the competition in a capitalist economy, but with the military intervention from respective nation states. Germany was a problem for Britain etc because it became a bourgeois nation state much later than Britain, France and Holland, but it's industry developed rapidly at a time Britain's slowed down. German capitalism was hungry for resources and markets. But Germany had missed out on the scramble for Africa. Hence WW1 was about Germany wanting resources and power, and the Allies making sure Germany didn't take it off them. WW2 was largely a continuation of WW1 with Hitler basing himself on the German's bitterness at the treaty of Versailles. In fact Germany was not smashed in 1918 because Lloyd George didn't want it smashed. Germany was to be a buttress against communism.

Germany lost territories, but it was lack of territories which caused Germany to want war in the first place! Thus the seeds of the next war were sown. The capitalists let Hitler get into power for this purpose (anti-communism) too - to finish off the German workers.

Both wars emerged from economic crises, especially WW2 which came out of the Great Depression. Germany was full of impoverished petty bourgeois who were not organised like the workers. The ruling class (capitalists) wanted their territories back. Hence the ruling class and petty-bourgeois (middle class) backed the rise of the fascists, who they thought would lead them back to former glory. The fascists first job was to finish off once and for all the workers organisations and the constant threat of revolution.
I don't disagree at all with that assessment. I guess a better way to state what I meant would be that the internal justification for war is almost always the elimination of some evil, whether it be stolen land, external taxation, racial "impurity" :roll: , lack of resources, or perceived threat etc. etc. Rulers, even ones we as a society can clearly see are sociopaths, have an internal logic that states they are "cleansing" the world of a perceived evil. We don't live in a cartoon world, people don't generally do things just to be "bad". They think they are right.

myrnova
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:23 pm

oh, the glorious black bloc in Seattle...

Image

And now this "machineworking" talking like Bush :roll: (the father, the son... obama... whoever... what's the difference after all)

myrnova
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:29 pm

rote fahne wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
rote fahne wrote: your reaction shows how dumb you are, and that myrnova is right. the american wars are not a reaction on terrorism, terrorism was a reaction on the american wars.
First of all ad hominem attacks are useless, especially when coupled with a complete misunderstanding of what was said. I explained that most people think that terrorism is a result of religious zealotry, I wasn't talking about why terrorism existed in the first place. Terrorism is just a convenient term for a recognized army to portray partisans. One mans Boston Tea Party is another mans act of terrorism.
and as i see you live in seatle, and i was brought up only 3 miles from the german border, while my grandmother witnessed the bombardment of rotterdam, two of my grandfathers had to work in nazi labour camps, i dont give a shit about your opinions. and i am prolly older than you too.
This begs the question again. if you hate them so much why do you use their software and post on their forums?
None of what you said is any excuse for being a bigot, your age, the hell of the war, whether or not you think my opinion matters, none of it.
You basically are saying that because a country was taken over by extremists it's OK to hate all 80 million of them. This doesn't sound like wisdom to me.
It sounds precisely like the kind of reasoning that people do when they point to Hamas and suicide bombers to make excuses for why it's OK that the Gaza strip is heavily embargoed by Israel.
It's exactly the same reasoning that says suicide bombers are proof that Iraqis are better off with the US invading etc..
pooh, what a shitload of strawmans.

first, i never said i hate them, i said i will never trust them. i had a very good relation with a german girl for 3 years, for example, and i met a lot of nice germans, and there are a lot of nice germans, but there are a lot of nazi germans still too, so as a collective i dont trust them.

or to put even more carefull: there might be a chance in future etc. etc.

has nothing to do with their products: do you trust the chinese? pretty terrible regime they got there, dont they. and sure you got products made by them.

life is inherenct hypocritical.


btw atta was from hamburg.
don't talk crap rote fahne. 99,9% of young germans are antinazi. They've learnt the lesson well.

rote fahne
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by rote fahne » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:32 pm

Machinesworking wrote:don't talk crap rote fahne. 99,9% of young germans are antinazi. They've learnt the lesson well.
idiot. what you know about spiesbuerger and the kleine leute. you've never been in baden wuertemberg or bavaria. you talk crep.

you dont even talk german and you have never been there. only thing you did was reading a book about hitler.

myrnova
Posts: 6451
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:34 pm

rote fahne wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:don't talk crap rote fahne. 99,9% of young germans are antinazi. They've learnt the lesson well.
idiot. what you know about spiesbuerger and the kleine leute. you've never been in baden wuertemberg or bavaria. you talk crep.

you dont even talk german and you have never been there. only thing you did was reading a book about hitler.
Ich spreche deutsch, so don't talk crap. The difference between young germans and young americans? Young germans learnt the lesson well and feel guilty for their past. Young americans don't even know what I am talking about when I talk of "U.S. crimes". They are brainwashed by war propaganda, like the young germans in the 30s.
Last edited by myrnova on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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