who is actually going to fall for obama care

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docprosper
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by docprosper » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:28 am

Funk N. Furter wrote:
docprosper wrote:Are you upset that you can't drive without insurance too?
But surely the law requiring car insurance is a limitation on our freedom, based on a hoax (see RTAs - Do they really happen) designed to satisfy governments' insatiable lust for power?
Some limitations on freedom I would call necessary evils. As much as I might not like paying car insurance, I would prefer that those other drivers around me be insured. Insisting that you shouldn't be required to have health insurance is IMO utter nonsense, especially since that same person would demand hospital care should some type of life threatening accident occur. Essentially US society as a whole is going to pay either way and this seems like a decent solution to the current problem. Another solution - let those who can't afford care die in the streets - is certainly least preferable. This whole thing, regardless of subtle flaws, seems like a no-brainer to me that unfortunately the Tea Party has managed to equate to Socialism to further their own extreme agenda. It's pitiful, really.
Funk N. Furter wrote:Post properly.
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docprosper
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by docprosper » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:30 am

Steve Ballmer wrote:
docprosper wrote:Couldn't disagree more. I've been to the emergency room many times over the last decade, with kids it's at least a once a year trip, and tons of people without insurance use emergency room trips as essentially subsidized health care. By tons i mean at least one every time i'm there. Show up, get the health care you need on the taxpayers dime. I prefer a system that requires people to be covered. Are you upset that you can't drive without insurance too?
Fascist.
I can't tell if you're joking or not but will assume for the time being that we're flirting. If things get steamy we should retire to a more private thread :wink:
Funk N. Furter wrote:Post properly.
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Steve Ballmer
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Steve Ballmer » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:41 am

:x
"Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy, don't be afraid to make slurping sounds, and don't take crap from anybody."

docprosper
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by docprosper » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:43 pm

:oops:
Funk N. Furter wrote:Post properly.
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H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:38 pm

:lol:

Steve Ballmer
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Steve Ballmer » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:02 pm

"Evil is necessary" - Funken the Marxist

:roll:
"Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy, don't be afraid to make slurping sounds, and don't take crap from anybody."

Steve Ballmer
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Steve Ballmer » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:14 pm

Did you not just agree that some evils are necessary? :roll:
"Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy, don't be afraid to make slurping sounds, and don't take crap from anybody."

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:14 pm

"make up quotes" - Funken the Marxist

Steve Ballmer
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Steve Ballmer » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:15 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Steve Ballmer wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:Only Marxists understand the subjective factor in history. Actually, I'm quite sure that you would exaggerate the importance of the subjective factor most of the time. Yet at the same time you cling to 'absolutes' such as 'human nature' and the 'naturalness' of capitalism.

If you tried to analyse history it would mostly consist of subjective stuff, eg you analysis of the 2008 crash is all about 'poor decisions' and 'government policies'. It's all about the actions of individuals being to blame. 'If only they had done things properly'. There is nothing that gets to the root causes. This is the same with your analysis of everything. This is why you personalise everything. This is because to you, the subjective factor is everything. Yet when it really counts, you discount the subjective factor all of a sudden, proclaiming the inevitability of capitalism as god-given as the sun revolving round the earth ;-)
Marxists don't understand what the word "subjective" means. :roll:
Tell us what it means then.
I already have. I even posted a quote from my dictionary.

You'd learn more by reading the dictionary for 2 minutes than you would from a lifetime of studying Marxism.
"Like what you like, enjoy what you enjoy, don't be afraid to make slurping sounds, and don't take crap from anybody."

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:51 pm

Funken, I agree with a lot you say. Certainly to do with how capitalism operates and all that.

But can you give the "only marxists understand..." lines a rest.

There are others who also get these things and are also looking for ways out of the current shitty state of affairs, but don't believe marxism is the solution.

Thanks.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:35 pm

does Marx have Medicare?

also, which level of the Obama plan would he sign up for? - since he is self employed and all.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:02 pm

riiiiight.... :!:


so, back on topic then?

Obama care was the subject in question... it's being held hostage now for meager bargaining chips. supposedly the "negotiations" between the Dems and Republicans will be over on Thursday... on the "negotiating" table... no coverage for Senators, Congressman or The President. 8) finally a glimmer of reality in the midst of madness.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:39 pm

ok... they're slanted. the points in the article are heavily slanted.

An article that is discussing facts should contain little or none of the following leading/guiding verbiage:
This policy is fraught with problems
Unscrupulous employers
so-called
Step Up the Fight
outrageous

but no big deal, pretty much all the articles written about it are slanted one way or another.

there are so many factors to consider with all of this... that any step in the direction of providing US citizens with health care is preferred over the nothing/Emergency Room option we currently have. at least for me it is. it seems to me that the folks who are the most pissed off and biggest uproar are the ones with nicest benefits packages currently. so, i deduce from this that they've either forgotten what's it like to be without... or they've never been without in the first place.

i pay 110 bucks a month for my insurance through my employer. no complaints. it's not the best but it's affordable.
to ensure my healthy child on the same plan... my rates go to $490.00 per month.

sadly, if i would have saved the money i have paid for health insurance and instead put it in a savings account i could actually pay for a procedure to be performed out of pocket... which, by the way... is often billed at full price rather than the lower rate the insurance company pays for the same procedure. you can always tell what kind of physician you're dealing with in the states if they don't offer you a cash discount... Greedy. probably drives a Porche (maybe even with an automatic transmission because that's just how entitled they are).

lesterdiamond
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by lesterdiamond » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:09 am

Image

Machinesworking
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Machinesworking » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:44 am

Funk N. Furter wrote: My views represent a major strand of politics, far bigger than Ballmer's, and certainly more important. I represent socialism, ie Marxism, a scientific program for the working class to take power political and economic power and end war and poverty. My proposal is simple - take big companies into public ownership under democratic workers control. You may not agree with what I propose, you may say it's risky or unlikely to ever happen. I won't argue with that. But you cannot dispute my analysis. Even the serious capitalist commentators often agree with it.

Balmer represents a half-assed version of a fringe far-right tendency that wants to make the rich richer at the expense of the poor. Nobody takes those views seriously. Even the capitalists he adores so much take my views more seriously than his. His proposal, to eliminate government within a capitalist framework, is complete nonsense. His 'analysis', such as it is, is more like conspiracy theory junk most of the time.
I've gone over this with both of you before, but again, a state that controls all means of production ends up with far too much control. Let's make something clear here, something I think that people often forget, although the 'state' exists as a government organization, it's people with ideas in the end, and in positions of power far greater than the proletariat. Sure, it's supposed to speak for them, but even at it's best just like in a regular old democracy it will only speak for the majority. Couple that with the whole obvious tendency for the socialist revolutions we've seen to fall into Stalinist paranoid mass jailing and executions of enemies of the state and you get a picture of a great idea that so far has only been attempted by bloody revolution which has resulted in paranoid military dictatorships. Any conversation about Socialism or Libertarianism or really any radically different political ideology needs to have some sort of provision beyond "we won't do that" about the problems of dealing with resistance to said revolution. Basically the problem of violence escalating out of control and a Stalin or Pol Pot stepping in has to be addressed.

With Libertarianism like we've seen there is ZERO concern for the infirm, absolutely none. There are no provisions for it, and no plans to even discuss it if our resident multi banned proponent is any example. In fact I will agree with you to a degree on this, the whole concept of a state with no cash flow that can somehow enforce whatever laws are left in place on large businesses with huge bank accounts is beyond ridiculous.

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