who is actually going to fall for obama care

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smutek
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by smutek » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:11 pm

john gordon wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:
john gordon wrote:im giving the obama administration a big fuck you with his socialist agenda. people are actually buying his story? too funny.lick my balls obama and while youre at it sniff my taint just a little... :P
Why on earth would you think that Obama has a 'socialist agenda'?
He forcing me to get insurance or I have to pay a penalty... This doesn't sound like the American way in my eyes..The deductible people are going to have to pay is outrageous. Idk maybe if I can can get it for 60 bucks a month I'll consider it.
I just don't the govt telling me I have to do anything. Who are they ??
Under the ACA, you will have to purchase an insurance plan from a private, for profit corporation. If you do not then you have to pay the government a penalty.

You should break out a dictionary or sumthin because that's not even remotely socialist. Also, what in the hell is "the American way" - seems to vary widely depending on who you ask, how much they have, and what they want.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:27 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:The UK has a free healthcare system but it is not a Stalinist dictatorship, despite what people like Steve may imagine in their deluded blinkered imaginations.
funken, i'm curious... how did the health care system in Great Britain come to pass? Did someone decide one day to pull the trigger and the next day everyone had health care?


fwiw, i'm not kidding, baiting, trolling, etc. - i am genuinely curious, not to mention thankful for it... my grandmother lives in Matlock and that very health care system has provided her with a hip replacement and is sending care givers to check in on her at her home. she is 94 years old.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:14 pm

Matlock Bath, :D i miss it. i'd love to go back... i lived in Tansley for a time... it would be interesting to see how much that little village has changed.



back on topic...
1945
so, what was different in 1945?... let's see... everything was done with paper and forms... no need to have engineers making a plethora of databases talk to one another. Edgar Kaiser and Nixon's pyramid scheme (aka "Health Insurance") would not be manifest and lining those pockets for another 20 years... which means those elites who would eventually also be getting their pockets lined would not be in an uproar about that cash cow coming to an impasse (as is the case this very day)... then there was the whole rebuilding of all the shit that had been obliterated by bombs with swastikas and/or iron crosses on them. in a nut shell, times were different. when a country has been war torn and is being reconstructed is a great time to implement social plans and benefits for the society at large. unfortunately for the American citizens (at least as it pertains to health care)... none of those conditions exist in our borders at this time. so, what we have is this fucking mess instead.
Last edited by H20nly on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:21 pm

Several things were different. A couple of examples being-

£500000 MRI scanners didn't exist.
But they did have a fuck load of working class injured servicemen they were unwilling to throw on the scrap heap. Even the tories knew they couldn't get away with that.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:24 pm

^ there's that too.

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:32 pm

Funken, I don't think machines is suggesting nationalised health (or energy, etc) is a route to stalinism. Just the idea of complete socialist revolution that you advocate.

He is, like me, more of a reformist. And the reason is simple. It's too big a change for people to accept. Not just the capitalists, but middle class, self employed and even many working class. As the system depends on cooperation between everyone, there's little room for people who don't want it. And that is the path to totalitarianism.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:38 pm

^ yep.

Funken - that article you posted read like a Union spin on health care. Unions tend to be just as terrified of any change (that they don't demand) as anyone else. it's fear of the unknown and the fact that we can't just unmake a 40 year old mess with one fell swoop. what would happen to the hundreds of thousands of jobs that insurance companies, hospitals, and clinics and such provide if those methods in place were forced off the table because the government decided to change everything all in one day (or even in one year)?

i can tell you one of the first things is... a massive spike in unemployment claims AND... uninsured citizens.

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:03 pm

One way they could have done it would be to set up a government run insurance scheme. Being not for profit, it should be able to undercut private schemes. That would just be paperwork, and very little for the government to fuck up. People would still have the option to get private insurance of course.

The rest could come later. Or not.

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:31 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote: £500000? Is that what they cost? I was in one not long ago. You'd think for that price they could make them a bit quicker and quieter. Typical shoddy capitalist construction though innit?
Typical consumer. No appreciation for the effort that goes into designing this kind of shit.

Speaking as an engineer who designs this kind of shit. (Although not exactly that shit).

docprosper
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by docprosper » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:47 pm

smutek wrote:Under the ACA, you will have to purchase an insurance plan from a private, for profit corporation. If you do not then you have to pay the government a penalty.
you're making this sound worse than it is... like the gov't is removing your rights by forcing you to help a company profit. Can you get car insurance from a non-profit?

In my opinion - the gov't is forcing you to take care of yourself because, if you don't, eventually the gov't (and taxpayers) will anyway.

Side note: the taxes you pay go in part towards corporate profit as well, already.
Funk N. Furter wrote:Post properly.
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H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:34 am

Funk N. Furter wrote:
H20nly wrote:what would happen to the hundreds of thousands of jobs that insurance companies, hospitals, and clinics and such provide if those methods in place were forced off the table because the government decided to change everything all in one day (or even in one year)?

i can tell you one of the first things is... a massive spike in unemployment claims AND... uninsured citizens.
You mean the useless jobs? The government can create different jobs, more useful ones. We could also cut the working week as the useless jobs are eliminated.
well, i get that your intentions are in the right place... and i'm no slouch as it pertains to heavy handed reinventing the wheel... but the people who feed their families by answering the phones, filing the paperwork, supporting the IT infrastructure, and even cleaning the toilets would not view their jobs as quite so useless. :(

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:39 am

Funk N. Furter wrote:
andydes wrote:One way they could have done it would be to set up a government run insurance scheme. Being not for profit, it should be able to undercut private schemes. That would just be paperwork, and very little for the government to fuck up. People would still have the option to get private insurance of course.

The rest could come later. Or not.
Fuck that. I would scrap private healthcare. They are just leeches.
i actually like the dester's idea... the problem then becomes the government is the one who sets the prices for medical procedures... something they're not equipped to do... or they can trust the doctors to be upstanding great folk who don't wish to have enormous houses and instead provide them with realistic pricing...

that is of course after we send in the Navy Seals to eliminate the bastards who set the pricing on medical equipment.

2 drawer filing cabinet = $45
2 drawer filing cabinet in a medical supply catalogue = $240

this is the real problem with health care IMO... a fucking band-aid costs a dollar. :|

myrnova
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:02 am

For american people it is very difficult to understand public health care system as we know it in Europe or in socialist countries. For U.S. citizens everything must be paid, because they live in a capitalistic society. Everything in the U.S. is based on profit and war, schools and hospitals, too. So for them it is something "normal" to pay, even for health cures, and something "for free" is generally considered "a gift", "compassion" or "charity". That is a paradox in real democracy, and I can see well that the U.S. are not a real democracy, but a military dictatorship (based on war). That is why there the citizens have to pay for health cures: the worse the disease, the more you pay! (something considered absurd here, where everything MUST BE cured for free: from fever to cancer), they have death penalty (which every democracy considers a crime against humanity) and they are so scared of usual (social)democracies (which they call "socialism").

Italy, for instance, has the second best health care system in the world after France (and consider we have mafia and endemic corruption). Here only Berlusconi and his fascist allied (U.S. best friends") wanted to abolish public health care system, and to introduce "insurances" and such shit (like in the U.S.). Of course, our constitution is based on anti-fascism, so 90% of italian people want public schools, public hospitals, equality and solidarity (as in the french revolutionary motto: "Liberte, Fraternité, Egalité"). This because we learn since we are children (in school) that the most important rights are these: health, education, freedom. In the U.S. on the contrary, children have to learn "supremacy", "war", "competition", and generally they learn that "if you can't pay it you are a loser").

Again, not U.S. citizens' fault. They live in a capitalistic system,the could not even realize why people don't have to pay for health, it is considered "nonsense". I guess the utmost american people can obtain will be this "obamacare" (unless american people start a revolution, but I doubt they will: because of brainwashing propaganda 80-90% of them believe they live in a democracy, so are content enough with food, products, shitty movies, songs, "freedom of speech", some guns under the pillow and a big car).
Last edited by myrnova on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

smutek
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by smutek » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:22 am

docprosper wrote:
smutek wrote:Under the ACA, you will have to purchase an insurance plan from a private, for profit corporation. If you do not then you have to pay the government a penalty.
you're making this sound worse than it is... like the gov't is removing your rights by forcing you to help a company profit. Can you get car insurance from a non-profit?

In my opinion - the gov't is forcing you to take care of yourself because, if you don't, eventually the gov't (and taxpayers) will anyway.

Side note: the taxes you pay go in part towards corporate profit as well, already.
No man, I'm not - I'm making it sound like exactly what it is.
(aside - I already agree with your points, no need to convince me. I'm a supporter of the ACA)

I personally want full blown, state sponsored, glorious, 'socialist', single payer health care and would gladly foot an increase in my taxes to pay for it, but, fuck - something had to change, right?
(aside 2 - I also don't think socialist is a dirty word, I think it's a really nice word)

8)

smutek
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by smutek » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:28 am

I'm not part of the "LET THEM DIE crowd. I believe health care and education should share the same priority as national security because they are, actually, matters of national security.

Unfortunately the concept of healthy, well educated poor people is a hard sell. The very idea probably scares the piss out of certain segments of society.

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