who is actually going to fall for obama care

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myrnova
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by myrnova » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:42 am

smutek wrote:I'm not part of the "LET THEM DIE crowd. I believe health care and education should share the same priority as national security because they are, actually, matters of national security.

Unfortunately the concept of healthy, well educated poor people is a hard sell. The very idea probably scares the piss out of certain segments of society.
In the U.S. socialists dont' exist. That is why american people are generally so shocked about public health care system (which is not "free health cures for the poor"!). Here on the contrary every nation has (fortunately) a large number of socialist and communist people (at least 50-60% of the entire population) and big socialist/labourist parties. That is why we have more rights, no death penalty, hospitals for free, schools and universities for free, no guns, etc. Because of communists, fundamentally. Otherwise Europe would be even worse than the U.S. being half of its countries "reigns" with kings, queens and such archaic shit (UK, Sweden, Netherlands, Spain etc.). Regarding the U.S. ...alas, the more "liberal" party is the "democratic", aka one of the most racist parties in the world, which was still in the 60s for segregationism and for jim crows. Let alone the republicans (a "war party").

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:55 am

There's a lot of useless jobs in western society. What's everyone supposed to do if you got rid of them?

docprosper
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by docprosper » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:18 pm

smutek wrote:
docprosper wrote:
smutek wrote:Under the ACA, you will have to purchase an insurance plan from a private, for profit corporation. If you do not then you have to pay the government a penalty.
you're making this sound worse than it is... like the gov't is removing your rights by forcing you to help a company profit. Can you get car insurance from a non-profit?

In my opinion - the gov't is forcing you to take care of yourself because, if you don't, eventually the gov't (and taxpayers) will anyway.

Side note: the taxes you pay go in part towards corporate profit as well, already.
No man, I'm not - I'm making it sound like exactly what it is.
(aside - I already agree with your points, no need to convince me. I'm a supporter of the ACA)

I personally want full blown, state sponsored, glorious, 'socialist', single payer health care and would gladly foot an increase in my taxes to pay for it, but, fuck - something had to change, right?
(aside 2 - I also don't think socialist is a dirty word, I think it's a really nice word)

8)
cool man, just venting at the post, not at you ;) It's such a hot-button issue down here in VA that I'm starting to get quite defensive. Not to mention how many friends / neigbors have been directly affected by the recent furloughs, it's quite aggravating...
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andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:33 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
andydes wrote:There's a lot of useless jobs in western society. What's everyone supposed to do if you got rid of them?
Useful jobs. Or reduce the working week for everyone. Both.
That's pretty vague, but maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I mean what jobs would we need so many more of if we got rid of all the ones superfluous to socialism. With production and farming so automated and getting more so, I'm not sure there would be room for everyone, even with a 4 day week. Although micromanaging am economy might take some man power.

Maybe I should pm you though, so we don't derail this topic.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:23 pm

well, maybe you will get you magic wand.

until then, things will just have to change slowly.

Machinesworking
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:08 pm

andydes wrote:There's a lot of useless jobs in western society. What's everyone supposed to do if you got rid of them?
IMO if we actually did things in a sustainable way, there wouldn't be any lack of jobs. If all our products were designed to have minimal impact on the planet then there would be as many new jobs created as ones that would be rendered useless. Competition for the cheapest has driven production to create things that have a life span simply by virtue of their lack of actual cost.

So to tie this in, health care where it's a matter of making sure someone is OK rather than generating revenue or simply getting through the line of people waiting to visit the doctor. More doctors, not longer lines, and less cost, not inflated cost like we have in the states.
Our health care currently in place is one of the most expensive and all it covers is the desperately poor or mentally ill, veterans, and the elderly. This is directly tied into things like tax write offs for people who currently cannot pay the inflated costs. <-- This IMO more than anything else is the reason for the anti-obama care crowds funding by the health industry, they pay exorbitantly deflated tax amounts based on 'loss' because of uninsured people not able to pay their bills. So if they keep their rates high, they pay hardly any taxes on the cut rate they make from the insurance companies. Our current health industry is a scam, based on inflated operating costs and huge tax write offs, not on premium services and the free market like the tee baggers would have you believe.

smutek
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by smutek » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:15 pm

docprosper wrote: cool man, just venting at the post, not at you ;) It's such a hot-button issue down here in VA that I'm starting to get quite defensive. Not to mention how many friends / neigbors have been directly affected by the recent furloughs, it's quite aggravating...
Yep, people fighting tooth and nail against affordable health care, wouldn't even consider the concept of single payer (because *gasp* so-shal-izm), but meanwhile shit like this goes on right under our noses. Every fucking day we get robbed blind but we're too busy fighting each other and watching football to notice. Fuck.

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SuburbanThug
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by SuburbanThug » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:31 pm

Hmmm... Seems the OP has left the building. Maybe I'm just paranoid, or haven't spent enough time on the internet this past summer, but... this thread seems like... maybe it could be... TROLL BAIT?!?!?!?

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:15 am

john gordon has a history of inciting riots.

john gordon
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by john gordon » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:16 pm

I'm here!!! I've been too busy playing with Push to post as of lately. How ironic that I swore in other threads that I would never buy Push.. I wonder if this means ill end up signing up for Obamacare?
No I wasn't trolling I was just pissed at our shitty govt like I always am.
Carry on....

john gordon
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by john gordon » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:44 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
john gordon wrote:I'm here!!! I've been too busy playing with Push to post as of lately. How ironic that I swore in other threads that I would never buy Push.. I wonder if this means ill end up signing up for Obamacare?
No I wasn't trolling I was just pissed at our shitty govt like I always am.
Carry on....
Bullshit. I bet you've been inciting riots somewhere.
Funny you say this... Yesterday I went to the treasure island music fest and tricky had to cancel because of some visa issues..this obviously had something to do with our govt shutdown so I set the main stage on fire and caused a huge riot... I'm running from the police right now heading to Mexico..

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:52 am

I'd be pretty pissed if I missed Tricky too :evil:

john gordon
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by john gordon » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:16 pm

H20nly wrote:I'd be pretty pissed if I missed Tricky too :evil:
Man!!! I've wanted to see forever. One if the reasons I wanted to go to this show was to see him.

H20nly
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by H20nly » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:01 pm

john gordon wrote:
H20nly wrote:I'd be pretty pissed if I missed Tricky too :evil:
Man!!! I've wanted to see forever. One if the reasons I wanted to go to this show was to see him.
what was traffic like getting to/from that show?
i'm assuming un-fucking-real since it was on Treasure Island. :|

andydes
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Re: who is actually going to fall for obama care

Post by andydes » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:26 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote: Micro-managing the economy is a task that would be shared out among the whole population, and that is what socialism is. With a short working week, plus computers, it should be easy.
Christ, no. If you can't already see it, I don't know how to describe the enormity of what you are suggesting.

Ok, first take a look around your house/flat and realise that every single thing in it has been designed, made and tested by somebody. From coffee mugs to light switches to toilet seats to computer equipment.

Now consider something pretty straight forward like a simple clock radio. All the individual components will be made by separate companies. The circuit board, the led screen, the speaker, the buttons, the wires, the little plastic connectors at the ends of the wires, the transistors, the case, etc. Now consider the complicated machines needed to build the components. And those machine's components, and the machines needed to build them. And the mining and production of the materials to make it all out of.

Now think about just how many products there are out there for regular people to buy.

Then add all the equipment that exists that most people don't even think about. Say in food, water, logistics industries, etc.

So you would need some kind of integrated system to work out the supply and development of every single thing made in the world and how it fits into the chain of everything else that depends on it.

That would be a monster of a computer system. Even if there was no choice and only one version of everything. If you add the extra complexity of having different versions of all this for people to choose from, it gets a lot worse.

Then you want to make the whole system democratic, so everyone has a say in where production and development effort goes? Bare in mind that most people only consider the consumer products and have no idea about all the shit that makes the world we live in work.

So if you ask people whether they want more resources put into the high speed valve that goes in the machine that picks stones out of a stream of rice, or into the new touch screen marxPhone (tm), they'll choose the marxPhone everytime

Now, I'm really no fan of how our current capitalist system works, but basically this side of the whole thing kind of takes care of itself. If there's space in the market for a thing (anything), then someone will make it and people who need it will buy it.

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