Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
TomViolenz
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:32 pm

I thought my previous post was clear enough, but let me try again.
Fascism:
-The economical power is in the hands of very few. Be they multi national cooperations or oligarchs in favor of the leaders (could be the "communist" party, the ruling elite (US), the President (Putin) or the oil interest in Arab countries (the Sheiks)
-This economical elite is controling the civil/military leadership
-The rule of law is heavily distorted or subverted. (For the US through secret laws, secret courts with only one side being able to argue their case, very powerful inteligence organizations that are NOT controlled by a parlament)
-A secret prison/camp sytem outside of the rule of law is established. Torture is just another method of interogation
-The Military is the (or one of the) biggest and most influential sectors in society
-the masses are heavily influenced by propaganda in mass media, often openly, somtimes more subtly incited to hatred of others
-the freedom of the press is supressed or subverted
-as far as elections are still held, they are designed to change nothing of importance.

Fascism is a socio-economic system, just as other socio-economic systems it can stand on its own.

TomViolenz
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:US
NSA spying row reveals new tensions between imperialist powers

30/10/2013

Millions routinely spied upon by state agencies

Robert Bechert, CWI

http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/6536

Image

" Widespread anger across the world and embarrassment in Washington has greeted the news that the US security services and its closest allies, particularly Britain, have been spying both on their supposed allies and tens of millions of ordinary people around the world. Nearly every day there are new examples of mass surveillance, the latest being that in a few weeks around the last New Year, over 60 million Spanish phone calls were tapped. But this was not new, earlier it had been revealed that in one month 70 million French phone calls were tapped.

Example after example has appeared illustrating how the US and other governments’ security services, particularly Britain’s, have played fast and loose with the formal, “democratic” controls over their activities.

News of the US government’s surveillance of foreign rulers has had a particular effect in Latin America where it is seen as just another example of the US rulers’ arrogance. But also in Europe there is widespread popular anger, especially in Germany, France and Spain.

Now the Obama administration, faced with mounting anger inside and outside the US, has begun to distance itself from the NSA (National Security Agency). Suddenly Dianne Feinstein, the Democratic chair of the Senate intelligence committee, has announced she is “totally opposed” to spying on allies. At the same time, the Republication author of the Patriot Act has announced new measures to limit NSA activities in the US itself. "

read more at link
I have no idea why you posted this. Could you elucidate?!
If anything it supports my points.

rote fahne
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by rote fahne » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 pm

TomViolenz wrote:I thought my previous post was clear enough, but let me try again.
Fascism:
-The economical power is in the hands of very few. Be they multi national cooperations or oligarchs in favor of the leaders (could be the "communist" party, the ruling elite (US), the President (Putin) or the oil interest in Arab countries (the Sheiks)
-This economical elite is controling the civil/military leadership
-The rule of law is heavily distorted or subverted. (For the US through secret laws, secret courts with only one side being able to argue their case, very powerful inteligence organizations that are NOT controlled by a parlament)
-A secret prison/camp sytem outside of the rule of law is established. Torture is just another method of interogation
-The Military is the (or one of the) biggest and most influential sectors in society
-the masses are heavily influenced by propaganda in mass media, often openly, somtimes more subtly incited to hatred of others
-the freedom of the press is supressed or subverted
-as far as elections are still held, they are designed to change nothing of importance.

Fascism is a socio-economic system, just as other socio-economic systems it can stand on its own.
very good summary tom, +1

rote fahne
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by rote fahne » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:56 pm

iron law of oligarchy (robert michels)

The iron law of oligarchy is a political theory, first developed by the German syndicalist, sociologist and fascist, Robert Michels in his 1911 book, Political Parties.[1] It claims that rule by an elite, or "oligarchy", is inevitable as an "iron law" within any democratic organization as part of the "tactical and technical necessities" of organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

Galt
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:06 pm

TomViolenz wrote:1: the EU is not a nation state (yet?) But how impossible it is made to seccede can be wittnessed with the whole Greece fiasko.
2: No I don't believe that and I have no problem actually with the right of states or regions to secced. I just wanted to say that
a: This is not how nation states usually work and
b: That I can't fault Lincoln for taking this right away from people who used it to oppress others.
The US constitution, ratified by representatives from (most of) the member states, represents an agreement by which each of those member states should delegate certain powers and responsibilities to a central power in exchange for certain protections. When Lincoln infringed on the terms of that constitution, he rendered it null and void, thus effectively dissolving the union. The US has been a military dictatorship ever since.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better" - Abe L. (1848)

Galt
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:15 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote: Trotsky

What Is National Socialism?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky ... 330610.htm

"The date of the new European catastrophe will be determined by the time necessary for the arming of Germany. It is not a question of months, but neither is it a question of decades. It will be but a few years before Europe is again plunged into a war, unless Hitler is forestalled in time by the inner forces of Germany.

November 2, 1933
"
Why do you insist on constantly quoting that advocate of terrorism? Do you not realise that he is little more than a joke to the good folk here. Even über-socialsit The Finn tsk-tsks at his name. You don't see me quoting Any Rand every two posts, not because I don't agree with her (although I don't), but also because as far as these discussions are concerned, her words bear no weight. You're only hurting your ability to make a persuasive argument. Tsk-fucking-tsk.

TomViolenz
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:19 pm

rote fahne wrote:iron law of oligarchy (robert michels)

The iron law of oligarchy is a political theory, first developed by the German syndicalist, sociologist and fascist, Robert Michels in his 1911 book, Political Parties.[1] It claims that rule by an elite, or "oligarchy", is inevitable as an "iron law" within any democratic organization as part of the "tactical and technical necessities" of organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
While a lot of it seems plausible, I can't help but feel he might be another Hammer that sees only nails.
As a more topical critique I'd say that this is exactly why the seperation of powers exists (basically different elites controling each other) and why things like constitutions exist (to limit the extend how far the elite can go)
I don't see things quite as gloomy as his idea would make things. I think democracies can exist and are the preferable socio-economic system. (I personally think the Swiss have a very good system in place to govern themselves). But I do think all the relevant democracies in this world have been subverted and that we are straight on our way to Fascism.
I also want to point out that as far as I remember no Fascist system has ever been overthrown from within, and with Fascism going global, I don't see who should do it from the outside...

TomViolenz
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:23 pm

Galt wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote: Trotsky

What Is National Socialism?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky ... 330610.htm

"The date of the new European catastrophe will be determined by the time necessary for the arming of Germany. It is not a question of months, but neither is it a question of decades. It will be but a few years before Europe is again plunged into a war, unless Hitler is forestalled in time by the inner forces of Germany.

November 2, 1933
"
Why do you insist on constantly quoting that advocate of terrorism? Do you not realise that he is little more than a joke to the good folk here. Even über-socialsit The Finn tsk-tsks at his name. You don't see me quoting Any Rand every two posts, not because I don't agree with her (although I don't), but also because as far as these discussions are concerned, her words bear no weight. You're only hurting your ability to make a persuasive argument. Tsk-fucking-tsk.
I would add to this, that the quote does not even make a good point regarding the topic being discussed. It's just a historical observation. It might be correct (as it was), but it does nothing to show that Fascism is dependent on Socialism existing IMO.

Galt
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:29 pm

TomViolenz wrote:
Galt wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote: Trotsky

What Is National Socialism?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky ... 330610.htm

"The date of the new European catastrophe will be determined by the time necessary for the arming of Germany. It is not a question of months, but neither is it a question of decades. It will be but a few years before Europe is again plunged into a war, unless Hitler is forestalled in time by the inner forces of Germany.

November 2, 1933
"
Why do you insist on constantly quoting that advocate of terrorism? Do you not realise that he is little more than a joke to the good folk here. Even über-socialsit The Finn tsk-tsks at his name. You don't see me quoting Any Rand every two posts, not because I don't agree with her (although I don't), but also because as far as these discussions are concerned, her words bear no weight. You're only hurting your ability to make a persuasive argument. Tsk-fucking-tsk.
I would add to this, that the quote does not even make a good point regarding the topic being discussed. It's just a historical observation. It might be correct (as it was), but it does nothing to show that Fascism is dependent on Socialism existing IMO.
True dat, but if you push him, he might mention the unrelated context from which this quote was so tenderly plucked :idea:

TomViolenz
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by TomViolenz » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:29 pm

Galt wrote:
TomViolenz wrote:1: the EU is not a nation state (yet?) But how impossible it is made to seccede can be wittnessed with the whole Greece fiasko.
2: No I don't believe that and I have no problem actually with the right of states or regions to secced. I just wanted to say that
a: This is not how nation states usually work and
b: That I can't fault Lincoln for taking this right away from people who used it to oppress others.
The US constitution, ratified by representatives from (most of) the member states, represents an agreement by which each of those member states should delegate certain powers and responsibilities to a central power in exchange for certain protections. When Lincoln infringed on the terms of that constitution, he rendered it null and void, thus effectively dissolving the union. The US has been a military dictatorship ever since.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better" - Abe L. (1848)
Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. What do you propose, given the situation at the time, he should have done if he wanted to stop slavery (not that was actually why he did it, but that's a different topic)
And considering that the US had hardly an Army worth mentioning befor WWI, I find the thing with them being a militarry dictatorship since then to be pure hyperbole.

Galt
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:40 pm

TomViolenz wrote:Sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. What do you propose, given the situation at the time, he should have done if he wanted to stop slavery (not that was actually why he did it, but that's a different topic)
And considering that the US had hardly an Army worth mentioning befor WWI, I find the thing with them being a militarry dictatorship since then to be pure hyperbole.
I do not believe that it was his job to stop the slavery, just as I do not believe that the US has any business "exporting democracy". Not that I believe that is their purpose either.

rote fahne
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by rote fahne » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:40 pm

the end of slavery was because of mechanisation. (w.f. hermans)

H20nly
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by H20nly » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:03 pm

rote fahne wrote:the end of slavery was because of mechanisation. (w.f. hermans)
the end of slavery was myrnova calling Paul Mooney an Angloamerican.

just sayin.

Galt
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by Galt » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:44 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:"All Marxists in Russia began in the historic fight against terrorism"

Trotsky
But only because they thought they could do a better job. :roll:

Galt
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Re: Musicians no longer socially relevant?

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:42 am

"Randomly blowing up children would be fine, if only it were effective." - Trotsky

You're going to try to duck this, but if the question of efficiency is Trotsky's only qualm with terrorism, as he EXPLICITLY says it is, then the above line is logically implied.

Which makes Trotsky a sick fuck.

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