TPP: Investor-state dispute settlements=corporate terrorism!

[earthloop]

I do understand that this is a very big problem (even though I still have to wrap my head around this new situation)
I don't agree that this is the worst thing happening to us (I think the global surveilance state is worse - being from former East Germany and all), but it is really bad and unfortunately those things are not mutually exclusive...

If you mean the trade agreement rules and global surveillance are not mutually exclusive I think you are right. They are part and parcel of the same agenda. In order to ensure that those who sign up continue to abide by the rules, there has to be some sort of coercion involved to enforce them.

[andydes]

I do understand that this is a very big problem (even though I still have to wrap my head around this new situation)
I don't agree that this is the worst thing happening to us (I think the global surveilance state is worse - being from former East Germany and all), but it is really bad and unfortunately those things are not mutually exclusive...

That's ok, you're allowed to be pissed off at two shitty things at the same time.

[TomViolenz]

I do understand that this is a very big problem (even though I still have to wrap my head around this new situation)
I don't agree that this is the worst thing happening to us (I think the global surveilance state is worse - being from former East Germany and all), but it is really bad and unfortunately those things are not mutually exclusive...

If you mean the trade agreement rules and global surveillance are not mutually exclusive I think you are right. They are part and parcel of the same agenda. In order to ensure that those who sign up continue to abide by the rules, there has to be some sort of coercion involved to enforce them.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean!

(Am I really so unclear to you guys?)

[earthloop]

Courtesy of Wikileaks... this is a leaked copy of the actual text of the 'Secret Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP)' which is the subject of this discussion. Actually, this is just the chapter on intellectual property rights, but some of the provisions can be applied in areas like Pharmaceuticals etc. It is a long document but if you take some time to scan through it you will see how things have progressed over time, with a lot of the exclusions based on 'public interest' clauses being objected to by the US.

Anyway, it is the actual document: http://wikileaks.org/tpp/

[H20nly]

*shudder*

not cool.

[beats me]

Watched a documentary on wikileaks the other night. Not the Hollywood movie, but an actual documentary. Interesting stuff but it pretty much ended by saying Assange becoming a celebrity ruined its purpose, interest, and clout. And it wasn’t just the media turning him into a celebrity but that he loved(s?) all the attention. This was coming from his own people.

[earthloop]

That may be so...but this is not about Wikileaks!

[beats me]

Sorry for going way off the rails with that OT in this thread.

[earthloop]

Sorry for going way off the rails with that OT in this thread.

Thank you. I will rule it as a misdemeanor...considering you are not one of the major spammers here.

Now, back to business. I started this topic because I am a citizen in a country looking at us being sold down the river by a new conservative government here who seem to have been to the Republican Tea Party school of economics and politics. In other words, we are being sold into slavery to corporate entities who want to rape and pillage our resources at will!...and destroy laws we have passed protecting low income people in the areas of health and work related standards. No exaggeration!

US citizens here probably don't see this as such a huge issue, not only because most of the serious threats come from companies indigenous to the USA, but because you have lived under these circumstances as a simple fact of life for a long time. But to those of us in the (soon to be former) real free world it is a major issue as we see our rights to self determination about to be stripped away and not being able to do a thing about it because the newly elected government neglected to tell us about this! Three years to the next election...too late!!!

Europeans...you are next!

I am so angry!!!

[beats me]

[US citizens here probably don't see this as such a huge issue, not only because most of the serious threats come from companies indigenous to the USA, but because you have lived under these circumstances as a simple fact of life for a long time. But to those of us in the (soon to be former) real free world it is a major issue as we see our rights to self determination about to be stripped away and not being able to do a thing about it because the newly elected government neglected to tell us about this! Three years to the next election...too late!!!

Europeans...you are next!

I am so angry!!!

Here’s how the meeting went down.

Gentlemen, congratulations all around on decimating the US middle class. We can now go back to focusing on poor vs rich without distraction from that murky middle area. Simplicity.

In totally coincidental and unrelated news it appears less and less Americans are buying our goods and services, and more alarming, aren’t willing to pay reasonable high interest rates for the privilege of having it NOW. None of us saw this coming and rest assured that we won’t stop researching possible causes. Nothing in history like this has ever happened. It defies reason.

But in the meantime there’s good news. Outside US borders there’s still money to be made and there’s nothing to stop us! Well, maybe a couple speed bumps but nothing we can’t steamroll over. I think history will show that US business didn’t need the US citizen to succeed. It’s high time we start embracing those outside our borders and give them the greatness the US citizenry once enjoyed before they became a bunch of ungrateful lazy assholes.

Enjoy our sloppy seconds.

[earthloop]

Enjoy our sloppy seconds.

Thanks for that picture. How about turning it into a visual meme to let loose across the internet!

[earthloop]

What needs to be done is local communities need to be educated as to what they are not being told and get organised so that if 'global' laws force local authorities to stand aside when a global corporation threatens to sue if they don't get their way, the community has smart ways of passively resisting what is happening. Then the state and federal levels of government can be held clearly to account if they try to enforce laws not agreed to by the voters!

Yes folks...it is time for a grass roots revolution. It's party time!!!

[TomViolenz]

[US citizens here probably don't see this as such a huge issue, not only because most of the serious threats come from companies indigenous to the USA, but because you have lived under these circumstances as a simple fact of life for a long time. But to those of us in the (soon to be former) real free world it is a major issue as we see our rights to self determination about to be stripped away and not being able to do a thing about it because the newly elected government neglected to tell us about this! Three years to the next election...too late!!!

Europeans...you are next!

I am so angry!!!

Here’s how the meeting went down.

Gentlemen, congratulations all around on decimating the US middle class. We can now go back to focusing on poor vs rich without distraction from that murky middle area. Simplicity.

In totally coincidental and unrelated news it appears less and less Americans are buying our goods and services, and more alarming, aren’t willing to pay reasonable high interest rates for the privilege of having it NOW. None of us saw this coming and rest assured that we won’t stop researching possible causes. Nothing in history like this has ever happened. It defies reason.

But in the meantime there’s good news. Outside US borders there’s still money to be made and there’s nothing to stop us! Well, maybe a couple speed bumps but nothing we can’t steamroll over. I think history will show that US business didn’t need the US citizen to succeed. It’s high time we start embracing those outside our borders and give them the greatness the US citizenry once enjoyed before they became a bunch of ungrateful lazy assholes.

Let me finish that story for you:

...and when we finally have all their money and resources and only a raped ecological wasteland is left...it's that future guys problem, I'm gonna have my fun now!

They are just like the average human being, just vastly more powerful. We are doomed!

[TomViolenz]

What needs to be done is local communities need to be educated as to what they are not being told and get organised so that if 'global' laws force local authorities to stand aside when a global corporation threatens to sue if they don't get their way, the community has smart ways of passively resisting what is happening. Then the state and federal levels of government can be held clearly to account if they try to enforce laws not agreed to by the voters!

Yes folks...it is time for a grass roots revolution. It.s party time!!!

You are vastly more optimistic than me!
Have you met your fellow human being lately?! This will never work, at least not till it's much to late. Look at Syria, what makes them so different from us?

[earthloop]

What needs to be done is local communities need to be educated as to what they are not being told and get organised so that if 'global' laws force local authorities to stand aside when a global corporation threatens to sue if they don't get their way, the community has smart ways of passively resisting what is happening. Then the state and federal levels of government can be held clearly to account if they try to enforce laws not agreed to by the voters!

Yes folks...it is time for a grass roots revolution. It.s party time!!!

You are vastly more optimistic than me!
Have you met your fellow human being lately?! This will never work, at least not till it's much to late. Look at Syria, what makes them so different from us?

Tom, I get your cynicism! I am lucky that I live in a community which is so socially active that we launched a public campaign (on line and in the streets) against forced local council amalgamations which would have destroyed the local arts related community in favour of a suburban big box mall dominated type of community. We won! the state government backed down and accepted our argument that it was counter productive and simply wouldn't work. We made it a state issue.

But this only happens when people get information which convinces them that they (at least the majority) are going to be the losers. No-one wants to lose! But it takes work at the local level to get the right people elected to local government...takes work and organisation. When we won, another municipality did the same. Suddenly the state government was confronting a broad social revolt (of self interest...just has to be 'guided'). This is how the environmental movement started and now it really does influence decision making at every level. It is how we (in Australia at least) forced a federal government out and got rid of conscription back in the Vietnam war days...and withdrew our troops from that war.

It all starts (resistance) at the local level where it is hardest to control because it is so random and 'decentered'. From there, especially with modern communications tech. like the internet (this is why they want to control it btw) things go viral and stuff goes pear shaped for governments very quickly. Then they have to use their co-ercive powers (police; courts) to try to control social resistance and all of a sudden they are in trouble because that draws attention to what is actually going on...ordinary people being criminalised for standing up for what was considered 'normal' rights etc. I could go on but I don't want to test the patience of people here.