I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

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Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:48 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:The NHS itself calls it free

" Who is entitled to free NHS dental treatment in England? "

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1786.aspx?c ... goryid=742

so does the National Health Executive

Failure to change could ‘jeopardise free healthcare’ – NHS Confederation

http://www.nationalhealthexecutive.com/ ... federation

so do the major newspapers

"End of free NHS care for migrants under new bill"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -bill.html
If i call you a twat, does that make you a twat? :roll:

Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:51 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Galt wrote:...food which was produced by capitalism. Socialism can't produce shit. Seriously, ask an expert, and all you'll hear is "we don't do economics or wha'effah, but trust us, there'll be food aplenty, like, yo mama so fat she must live in a socialist utopia".
Explain why the economy of the USSR grew faster than the USA's, despite the handicap of being distorted by a grotesque Stalinist dictatorship.
I seem to have skipped over the most important part here—that you would use the USSR as an example of socialism producing shit.

...the USSR as an example of socialism...

...the USSR... socialism...

A big pat on the back for Funken who has finally come out the the closet! :lol:

Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:52 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:I'm a twat and proud of it.
Now if I were to say that you sucked Thatcher's fat, capitalist dick, would that make it so? :roll:

crofter
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by crofter » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:53 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
crofter wrote: where's your self respect?
I don't have any.
Obviously,you spout all this commie crap and live off a capitalist economy you're a fraud and a phoney.
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Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:57 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:Shut up.
I'm gonna take that as a yes.

crofter
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by crofter » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:02 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
crofter wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:

I don't have any.
Obviously,you spout all this commie crap and live off a capitalist economy you're a fraud and a phoney.
I did try emigrating to another planet, but I came back due to popular request.
But you aren't popular, you have no credibility whatsoever, go now.
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Bean Machine
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Bean Machine » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:02 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:The NHS itself calls it free
Oh well then, it must be true.

On a similar token, I hereby call myself the winner of this debate. Thanks for playing. :lol:

andydes
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by andydes » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote: Explain why the economy of the USSR grew faster than the USA's, despite the handicap of being distorted by a grotesque Stalinist dictatorship.
Wasn't all that good for the people.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer ... viet_Union
Distribution and Supply

In the early the 1930s, the closed distribution system was the primary method of consumer goods distribution. By 1933, two thirds of Moscow’s population and 58 percent of Leningrad’s populations were served by these stores. [6] The closed distribution system consisted of closed stores and cafeterias accessible only to workers registered at that enterprise. [7]

These centers distributed rationed goods. The system was set up to protect the workers from the worst effects of limited supply and shortages. It also linked the rationing system with employment. Rationing was regarded as the default option during this time period. Rationing happened during the first half of the 1930s, between 1929 and 1935, and after a brief pause began again in the 1940s, between 1941 and 1947. The State was in charge of declaring of rationing periods but local officials also had the power to declare rationing periods between official state rationing periods. The closed system quickly became a method of giving special privileges to loyal Stalin followers and the Stalinist elite. Certain stores became places that distributed higher quality goods to certain categories of more privileged citizens. Most closed distribution stores had low prices, long lines, and limited supply regardless of the rationing policies.

At the same time, there were three other legal alternatives to closed distribution stores: commercial stores, Torgsin stores and Kolkhoz markets. All had higher prices than the closed distribution stores. Since the state controlled all of these distribution methods, it could exercise a distribution monopoly. [8]

The First Five-Year plan caused the closure of all artisan methods of consumer goods production, such as small private factories and workshops. In the mid-1930s, these methods of production were allowed to return on a small scale. [9] In May 1936, a law was passed that slightly improved the short supply of consumer goods by legalizing individual practice of trades such as shoe-repair, cabinetmaking, carpentry, dressmaking, hairdressing, laundering, locksmith work, photography, plumbing, tailoring, and upholstery - it slightly improved the shortage of consumer goods. Artisanal activity related to food was still banned. Kolkhoz markets were set up for artisans and peasants to sell their homemade goods. The state regulated the amount of participation in these markets but prices were allowed to float. [10] This floating caused the prices at these markets to normally be higher than prices in the closed distribution stores. Individual service was illegal until May 1936.

The state also set up Torgsin stores that sold scarce goods in exchange for foreign currency, gold, silver and other valuables. The purpose of these stores was to expand Soviet hard currency reserves so that the country could import more equipment for the industrialization drive. Since these goods were scare, consumers viewed these items as treasured valuables and selling them was a huge sacrifice. Prices were kept low in order to entice people to participate in the Torgsin stores. [11] These stores ran from 1930 to 1936.

The state ran commercial stores that functioned outside the rationing system. Goods were sold for higher prices than the closed distribution stores with prices usually two to four time the price of goods in the closed distribution stores. [12] The goods sold were regarded as higher quality than goods sold by the closed distribution stores. The stores began in 1929. The first department store, called the Central Department Store, opened in Moscow at the end of 1933 and ran until the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. It was part of the commercial store network. The end of the first rationing period and the abolishment of the closed distribution system in 1935 caused the commercial store network to expand. In January 1935, there were five department stores open in the USSR. A year later, fifteen more department stores had opened. [13]

Foreign Influence

The importation of foreign goods was extremely limited during the 1930s. The official slogan was “There was much to be learned from the example of the advance capitalist countries in the field of consumer goods”. [14] Small numbers of foreign goods were imported, studied, and then copied. These Soviet versions of foreign consumer goods were distributed through consumption channels. Governmental direct import of consumer goods en-mass was non-existent. During the Soviet- Nazi Pact period (1939) the Soviet citizens’ primary interaction with the outside world was with the peoples of the newly occupied borderlands including Finland, the Baltic States, Bessarabia, and Poland. [15] Goods considered scarce in USSR such as watches, bicycles, clothes and food products were plentiful in these regions. The occupying Red Army was fascinated with the diversity of goods and low prices. Viewed as a once in a lifetime opportunity to acquire them, soldiers brought large quantities of these goods to send back to their families in the USSR. [16] This flow of goods inspired civilians to seek permission to travel to these areas in order to acquire the goods and sell them on the blackmarket.

Bean Machine
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Bean Machine » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:"Take" [me up] my arse [baby, I like it rough!]
Er… no thanks.
Last edited by Bean Machine on Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:06 pm

Image

Machinesworking
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:09 pm

crofter wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:
crofter wrote: where's your self respect?
I don't have any.
Obviously,you spout all this commie crap and live off a capitalist economy you're a fraud and a phoney.
Let's be clear here. The part of our societies that has free health care, and safety nets for the poor is decidedly not capitalist.
The part that allows bankruptcy, corporate welfare and the like isn't either. Capitalism is and always has been propped up with some socialist principals in place to prevent chaos and revolution.

No political or economic system has existed for very long that wasn't flexible.

Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:17 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Let's be clear here. The part of our societies that has free health care, and safety nets for the poor is decidedly not capitalist.
The part that allows bankruptcy, corporate welfare and the like isn't either. Capitalism is and always has been propped up with some socialist principals in place to prevent chaos and revolution.

No political or economic system has existed for very long that wasn't flexible.
Let's be clear here, this is bullshit. The "non-capitalist" parts can only exist because of capitalism. Otherwise, whose taxes would pay for them? Whose hard labour would they leech off?

This is why funken's solution of abolishing capitalism is insanity. The effect would be akin to that of turning off a dying man's life-support.

Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:34 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:Let's be clear here. I want to work, I could work. In a socialist society I would be working. I am not working because there are never enough jobs in a capitalist economy and people like me (old, disabled, ultra-intelligent) get discriminated against.
If you want to work, and could work, but nobody hires you, it's because nobody wants you. And I can't in good faith condone any law that forces people to be in the same room with you.

Machinesworking
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:59 pm

Galt wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:Let's be clear here. The part of our societies that has free health care, and safety nets for the poor is decidedly not capitalist.
The part that allows bankruptcy, corporate welfare and the like isn't either. Capitalism is and always has been propped up with some socialist principals in place to prevent chaos and revolution.

No political or economic system has existed for very long that wasn't flexible.
Let's be clear here, this is bullshit. The "non-capitalist" parts can only exist because of capitalism. Otherwise, whose taxes would pay for them? Whose hard labour would they leech off?

This is why funken's solution of abolishing capitalism is insanity. The effect would be akin to that of turning off a dying man's life-support.
Capitalism =/= work. The very first assumption you make is wrong. A state run electric company still produces a product with a value. People do this all the time, they confuse trade with an economic system.
Plus, the simple fact is there are more safety nets in (mostly) socialist economies, universal health care etc. less in mostly capitalist economies. So the dying man does better with more socialism. Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, etc. all have a more socialist, better safety net for that dying man. The person that doesn't do as well is the talentless bureaucrat who inherited a company producing an item of some need to people. Bankers, industrialists etc.

Galt
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Re: I Don't understand the Issues with Obamacare

Post by Galt » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:12 pm

Machinesworking wrote:Capitalism =/= work. The very first assumption you make is wrong. A state run electric company still produces a product with a value. People do this all the time, they confuse trade with an economic system.
Plus, the simple fact is there are more safety nets in (mostly) socialist economies, universal health care etc. less in mostly capitalist economies. So the dying man does better with more socialism. Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, etc. all have a more socialist, better safety net for that dying man. The person that doesn't do as well is the talentless bureaucrat who inherited a company producing an item of some need to people. Bankers, industrialists etc.
Capitalism is synonymous with the free market. Do deny its potential for production is to claim that human beings are inherently lazy cunts, who, if left to their own devices, would shrivel up and die. But this is not the world we live in. We live in a world where the majority of humans are like this, but—thank God—there are a few great men out there who can produce and inspire.

Socialism, on the other hand, is little more than a faux moral appeal for meddling. It doesn't understand value, production or anything other than its own trumped up flavor of "fairness", which more often than not is unfair.

The dying man is dying no matter which system he is unfortunate enough to bite it under. The only difference is that had he lived under a free market system, at least he will have had a chance at freedom, happiness and a few choice hookers. Balls gotta be emptied, ya ken?

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