FIFA World Cup

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
regretfullySaid
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by regretfullySaid » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:50 pm

Ah Of course, so I guess it's just the whooshMasters and people that listen to the whooshMasters that fall for it then. Silly geese

Good example of why one should reserve judgement until after gathering data from various sources :lol:
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TomViolenz
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by TomViolenz » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:26 pm

rikhyray wrote:
shadx312 wrote: it's like a couple friends playing for fun. .
And that was all to it. The German team stayed in cottages - couple of rooms/players in each and on the welcome event in Berlin each of those groups 3 or 4 of them entered the stage with some silly choreographies, some did rock style air guitars, other di that gaucho dance, all that Mallorca/Ibiza meets US spring break - drunken (harmless) non-sense.
Couple of journalists- the hardcore old media- tried to generate what Germans like to call shit storm, to catch the attention in the battle with Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. It seems to accelerate the realisation that they already lost the public under 40 years of age and keep loosing the elder public as well. It totally backfired and those journalists are perceived, on a massive scale, as attention whores and fools.
Absolutely, but that's not the whole of it. With this "incident" you can basically see agenda setting at work.
To day SPON titeled: Im Austeilen spitze, im Einstecken weniger: Mustafi verteidigt respektloses Verhalten.

So that's how it works: First make a claim of disrespectful/agressive behaviour, then when the attacked defends himself, claim him to be non-responsive to criticism. Next stage will be to demand him to take full responsibility.
Repeat it often enough, and it becomes almost inevitable.

This is how our free media always works, sometimes in their own agency to catch more clicks and eyeballs like here and sometimes on demand to do other peoples bidding.

rikhyray
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by rikhyray » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:52 pm

Out of curiosity had a look what the world, Argentina in particular has to say and it is mainly about German press criticising the players, not the matter itself.
Interesting what Javier Mascherano, the "conductor" of Argentinian team says about the "affair":
"Son cargadas (bromas) lógicas, no hay que tomarlo como nada personal...están festejando, son campeones del mundo. Si nosotros lo hubiéramos sido, todavía estaríamos festejando"
"They are loaded (jokes) we shouldn't take it personally... they are celebrating, they are world champions. If we had been, we would still be celebrating."

TomViolenz
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:15 am

rikhyray wrote:Out of curiosity had a look what the world, Argentina in particular has to say and it is mainly about German press criticising the players, not the matter itself.
Interesting what Javier Mascherano, the "conductor" of Argentinian team says about the "affair":
"Son cargadas (bromas) lógicas, no hay que tomarlo como nada personal...están festejando, son campeones del mundo. Si nosotros lo hubiéramos sido, todavía estaríamos festejando"
"They are loaded (jokes) we shouldn't take it personally... they are celebrating, they are world champions. If we had been, we would still be celebrating."
Of course. Did you see the youtube videos of the Argentinians singing in their locker rooms "disrespectful" songs about the Brazilians after they had lost 7:1 to us?! It's just normal macho behavior, and they know all about it.

So in the end, the whole media aspect is the much more revealing and interesting aspect of this all.

rikhyray
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by rikhyray » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:26 am

This is interesting comment (whoever wants to know the content use Google translation please, too long for me to translate)
"Wer wissen will, wie weit sich der deutsche "Journalismus" von der Bevölkerung entfernt hat, der sollte sich die Beiträge von Spiegel, FAZ, N24 und Focus (andere werden folgen) zur Gaucho-Einlage der DFB-Elf durchlesen. Wie man das Haar in der Suppe sucht und eine winzige Mücke zum Elefanten aufblasen will, dass kann nur Erstaunen hervorrufen. Da spielen sich einige aufgeblasene Moralapostel als das Gewissen der Nation auf und merken nicht, dass sie mit ihrer abgehobenen Art den Kontakt zu denjenigen verlieren, die ihnen die Brötchen finanzieren: ihre Leser.

Nur gut, dass die Zeit der Medien als Gatekeeper längst abläuft. Keine einziger DFB-Star ist auf Spiegel und Co. angewiesen, um sein Anliegen zu verbreiten. Stattdessen sind es diese Medien, die jedem Tweet bei der WM hinterher gehechelt sind, um nicht den Anschluss zu verlieren. Vielleicht ist genau das der Stoff, aus denen eure Beiträge sind: Das Gewahrwerden der zunehmenden Bedeutungslosigkeit eures überhöhten Ichs."

regretfullySaid
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by regretfullySaid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:40 am

The translations have been shit but it sounds like Germans were just celebrating on their own and media was making them seem like they were displaying bad sportsmanship, but everyone already recognizes it as media bs? As Tom mentioned earlier.
Last edited by regretfullySaid on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TomViolenz
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:42 am

rikhyray wrote:This is interesting comment (whoever wants to know the content use Google translation please, too long for me to translate)
"Wer wissen will, wie weit sich der deutsche "Journalismus" von der Bevölkerung entfernt hat, der sollte sich die Beiträge von Spiegel, FAZ, N24 und Focus (andere werden folgen) zur Gaucho-Einlage der DFB-Elf durchlesen. Wie man das Haar in der Suppe sucht und eine winzige Mücke zum Elefanten aufblasen will, dass kann nur Erstaunen hervorrufen. Da spielen sich einige aufgeblasene Moralapostel als das Gewissen der Nation auf und merken nicht, dass sie mit ihrer abgehobenen Art den Kontakt zu denjenigen verlieren, die ihnen die Brötchen finanzieren: ihre Leser.

Nur gut, dass die Zeit der Medien als Gatekeeper längst abläuft. Keine einziger DFB-Star ist auf Spiegel und Co. angewiesen, um sein Anliegen zu verbreiten. Stattdessen sind es diese Medien, die jedem Tweet bei der WM hinterher gehechelt sind, um nicht den Anschluss zu verlieren. Vielleicht ist genau das der Stoff, aus denen eure Beiträge sind: Das Gewahrwerden der zunehmenden Bedeutungslosigkeit eures überhöhten Ichs."
I have mixed feelings on this, I get the annoyance, but I don't see it being the harmless grasping at straws of a dying industry. People get desensitized by the constant outrage and scare mongering until the surveilance state and the new cold war and TPP are just more news in a world we can't influence. A true democracy needs a strong press and this selling out to the highest bidder, even if it's just for advertisment money is really dangerous.

regretfullySaid
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by regretfullySaid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:48 am

Maybe you're overlooking why they're a dying industry grasping at straws. It's because old media lost it's journalistic integrity and the countless alternative forms using the internet on the platform have become the people's choice. I think that's why HBO picked up Vice. As long as corporate media doesn't have power over the internet, that's where we can aim for sustaining democracy, which has been a huge issue as of late.
Maybe I'm not qualified to speak about it because you're talking about German media but it doesn't sound different from US media, and I'm sure at this point they're both owned by the same thing somewhere up the chain.

But if I'm missing the issue altogether let me know and I'll shut up.
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eyeknow
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by eyeknow » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:23 am

Well, we sure have found a way to continue this :lol:

Did I see that people are complaining because of how Germany celebrates?

rikhyray
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by rikhyray » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:18 am

TomViolenz wrote: A true democracy needs a strong press and this selling out to the highest bidder, even if it's just for advertisment money is really dangerous.
Exactly and that is why I found this miserable "affair" so disturbing, if that was matter of trash media like Bild, RTL, Stern or even Focus but Spiegel ? and even FAZ... when I saw it in Frankfurter Allgemeine, felt sick, even they gone to dogs... . Investigative journalism is essential to democracy.... hmmm, my mistake, it "was" essential but turned to be corrupt and useless.
Last week there was bizarre demonstration in Frankfurt, the alliance of extreme fanatic islamists, joined by Leftists and Neo Nazis !!! not just against Israel but against Jews, shouting slogans from Hitler`s days. As if such weird alliance wasnt enough, the real scandal was that police let them use their p.a. to address the crowd! But the press rather writes about the gaucho dance. The good part is that through FB posts, tweets, witnesses post photos, videos etc otherwise such news wouldnt reach wider public. Just like police brutality against Occupy movement in Frankfurt years back.
@ shadx - does not look like there is much difference, in Germany maybe bit worse because since decades the media is owned by very few "families" - easier to apply pressure, manipulate or simply silence.

eyeknow
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by eyeknow » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:55 am

Wow.

regretfullySaid
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by regretfullySaid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:55 am

So I was warping this album of library music and it made me wonder, if all the living members of Can (from all line-ups) ran Germany, would it be better?
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TomViolenz
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:16 am

shadx312 wrote:Maybe you're overlooking why they're a dying industry grasping at straws. It's because old media lost it's journalistic integrity and the countless alternative forms using the internet on the platform have become the people's choice. I think that's why HBO picked up Vice. As long as corporate media doesn't have power over the internet, that's where we can aim for sustaining democracy, which has been a huge issue as of late.
Maybe I'm not qualified to speak about it because you're talking about German media but it doesn't sound different from US media, and I'm sure at this point they're both owned by the same thing somewhere up the chain.

But if I'm missing the issue altogether let me know and I'll shut up.
No you're not missing the issue and I think Murdoch is really already having his grubby hands on the German media landscape.
But I'm not sure the causality was quite the way you depicted it.
Some of the old media may have had lost its integrity before, but I think a few outlets on the internet picking it up, should not be seen as a sign that this is just about a change to a new technology. The bigger change that is happening to all media with the internet is the business model. On the internet everything is expected to be free. But we are not living in a communistic SciFi society where robots do all the necessary work. People need to earn a living and each endevour is still expected to turn a profit. So everything is getting payed by someone, just not by the people recieving the service in question anymore. And if you are not the customer, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT.

It is dangerous to society to have our social interactions being harvested for monetary gain by Facebook and the like, but it is a death kneel for democracy to do the same for the press, as its function is the formation of opinions and positions of the public and therefore determines how society will be shaped.
And the people who are paying the bills have all the influence over which agenda will be set.
In the "old" dictatorships it was/is the government, who payed the bills of the media, so what was published was determined by them. So what you got, was that the media was turned into a propaganda arm of the government, stirring society according to its desires.

So who is paying the bills now, and accordingly, whose propaganda are you consuming?! This is the question from now on forward. It's not a single man behind a curtain somewhere (;-)), but an assortment of different and differing interests. But one thing is certain: Your interests (or the good of society) are very low on their lists of priorities!

For me it is no surprise whatsoever, for instance that The Guardian seems to be one of the last real independent investigative journalistic entities. They are perpetually funded by an estate fund set up for exactly this purpose.

TomViolenz
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:53 am

shadx312 wrote:So I was warping this album of library music and it made me wonder, if all the living members of Can (from all line-ups) ran Germany, would it be better?
Art as defined is always a dictatorship, because artists see themselves as dictators who should determine what is good/interesting/creative/useful/provocative.......

So no, I don't think this would be good in any way.



(I know, I know....again a serious answer to a joke question... :mrgreen: )

TomViolenz
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Re: FIFA World Cup

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:06 am

rikhyray wrote:
TomViolenz wrote: A true democracy needs a strong press and this selling out to the highest bidder, even if it's just for advertisment money is really dangerous.
Exactly and that is why I found this miserable "affair" so disturbing, if that was matter of trash media like Bild, RTL, Stern or even Focus but Spiegel ? and even FAZ... when I saw it in Frankfurter Allgemeine, felt sick, even they gone to dogs... . Investigative journalism is essential to democracy.... hmmm, my mistake, it "was" essential but turned to be corrupt and useless.
Last week there was bizarre demonstration in Frankfurt, the alliance of extreme fanatic islamists, joined by Leftists and Neo Nazis !!! not just against Israel but against Jews, shouting slogans from Hitler`s days. As if such weird alliance wasnt enough, the real scandal was that police let them use their p.a. to address the crowd! But the press rather writes about the gaucho dance. The good part is that through FB posts, tweets, witnesses post photos, videos etc otherwise such news wouldnt reach wider public. Just like police brutality against Occupy movement in Frankfurt years back.
@ shadx - does not look like there is much difference, in Germany maybe bit worse because since decades the media is owned by very few "families" - easier to apply pressure, manipulate or simply silence.

Careful though, did you attend yourself, to confirm this happened?!

I'm just asking because at the incident were Steinmeier was being called a Kriegstreiber, it was also reported in the media that the people who did this came from a happazard assortment of groups who demanded we leave the Euro, kick out asylum seekers and kick Greece out of the European Union. While non of this was true. The only group present was the pacifists who hold demonstrations every Monday on the Brandenburg gate. And the only thing they yelled and had on their posters was "Kriegstreiber", "Stop meddling in Ukraine" and "NO new Cold War with Russia".

This could be agenda setting as well. To make the only people protesting look like crazy and dangerous people, so that their concerns don't seem credible and that it might be easier in the future to train our security apparatus' on them.

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