Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
re:dream
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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by re:dream » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:18 am

I happen to disagree with Tom.

But i also note that none of his opponents in the thread have advanced anything remotely resembling an argument. You know, one of those things with premises, logical structure and a conclusion.

I would actually like to hear one of those. I mean, I have my own thoughts, but I would like to hear your actual reasoning. So how about putting together an actual case for the position that this is a meaningful and worthwhile gesture?

Is it based on the skill of the drummer? On sentimentality? On guilt?

For my part, I think it's a fine, generous gesture. Nothing more. The Amen Break is an iconic piece of audio; the fact that the guy who recorded it died homeless is one of those bitter ironies of music history; paying some money back to the original copyright holder is a mostly symbolic gesture of reparation and acknowledgement. It's true that the historic selection of the Amen Break as the most sampled drum loop of all time was somewhat arbitrary; it is true that the money should go to Coleman's family rather than the copyright holder; and it's true that doing it now, nine years after he died, is too little, too late. But in a world where there are few acts of generosity and acknowledgement, I think this kind of thing should be lauded, not belittled. And I think it is great when musicians acknowledge their moral and other debts to those who inspired them.

TomViolenz
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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:58 am

I see your points and I guess, if he was still alive (didn't know he was dead) it would have some merit on account of charity. People donate money for way more stupid reasons. And since it's a crowdfunding campaign, the money would be given voluntarily.

What I'd disagree with though, would be the idea that it is anything more than charity.
For the reasons you recapitulated well.

I also have an issue with the family of an artist having any right to money after his/her death. (same as in the Gaye case).
IMO after an artists death, his/her works should automatically be considered to be in the public domain.

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by H20nly » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:21 pm

I haven't put on my flame suit in a while... but this is getting fucking ridiculous.

Tom, if you're gonna hate on everything... and any one... could you please do it in less words? I mean shit, there's a wall of fucking text in every thread devoted to your opinion. Not a few lines, not a few words.... A wall. motherfuckers are getting carpal tunnel over this shit.

can we start getting the cliff's note versions, or better yet... the fortune cookie versions?

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by Styles Bitchly » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:32 pm

H20nly wrote:I haven't put on my flame suit in a while... but this is getting fucking ridiculous.

Tom, if you're gonna hate on everything... and any one... could you please do it in less words? I mean shit, there's a wall of fucking text in every thread devoted to your opinion. Not a few lines, not a few words.... A wall. motherfuckers are getting carpal tunnel over this shit.

can we start getting the cliff's note versions, or better yet... the fortune cookie versions?
This gave me a genuine hardcore chuckle. :mrgreen:

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by H20nly » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:34 pm

in regard to Amen break... The problem I have with giving money to the artist's family is that this feeds into the where does it end question? so they deserve something even through they weren't helping him have a roof over his head when he was alive?

and if the Amen break warrants payback then that's that. sampling is officially off the palette because God forbid you make a cent off of your production that might be mistaken as a sample.... because you'll have to pay that cent to lawyers and grand kids and someone who bought a copyright but has no musical talent....

sampling is dead unless you have deep pockets. if anything, this Amen break business is the final good bye. I guess it closes the circle.

re:dream
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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by re:dream » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:56 pm

Well, the whole IP model for music is currently fucked up. People own rock-hard IP in music which makes it impossible to borrow or use - but it's worth nothing because of free music streaming killing most musicians' revenue.

If musicians got a better deal in terms of broadcast fees, then that would have opened up the way for a better deal in terms of re-using samples.

At the moment we have a situation where musical innovation and borrowing is being made legally impossible. And now, with the Blurred Lines ruling, even sounding vaguely like an earlier artist is going to put you in the lawyers' crosshairs.

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by H20nly » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:07 pm

^ the sad part is, said earlier artist might not even care... might love what you did with the melody... but they're dead most of the time and a bunch of third and fourth parties are arguing about what they deserve.

just wait until the James Brown estate gets fired up. :|

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by beats me » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:13 pm

Yes, it’s horrifying to think we’re going to be living in a world where musicians and composers will only be able to utilize the license free 12,324,463 sounds available in affordable software and acoustic instruments and the voices of some 7 billion people minus those already captured by the major recording industry. Creative process killed. What’s next, people marrying their horse?

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by lowshelf » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:15 pm

It's a mint bit of spirited musicianship , but I like Tom's point that the legacy is only partly due to the original break, the other part is how its been rinsed over the years (retriggered, reprogrammed, layered, amped, twisted...). There's gotta be what, some 50+th generation sample iterations being dropped nowadays? It's funny to compare the original break with so many variants which also feel like THE amen break.

Seeing the CDM article's embedded documentary link, they should do another crowdfund to help James Lavelle with his poorly neck.

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:29 pm

H20nly wrote:I haven't put on my flame suit in a while... but this is getting fucking ridiculous.

Tom, if you're gonna hate on everything... and any one... could you please do it in less words? I mean shit, there's a wall of fucking text in every thread devoted to your opinion. Not a few lines, not a few words.... A wall. motherfuckers are getting carpal tunnel over this shit.

can we start getting the cliff's note versions, or better yet... the fortune cookie versions?
wow 8O

you like to tell other people how to behave huh?

shakes head in disbelief


And the answer is of course a hearty NO!



A few tips:

You don't like my opinions?! Ignore them! (or find arguments against them, if you like)
You find my posts too boring/stupid/negative?! Ignore them! (or find arguments against them, if you like)
You find my posts too long?! Don't read them!

Simple enough, don't you think?!

This goes for all of you and I think all of you applauding this request should be ashamed of yourself

I never tell anyone here how to behave, unless that behavior is directed against me personally, even if all you seem to be able to add to conversations is toilet humor of 13year olds.

Try to be a little more tolerant of others freedom of expression and also feelings

You may find my opinions on topics negative, but I find most of your behavior towards me lately exceptionally hateful and it's starting to get to me

Is that really how you want to be?!

/dissapointed :(

re:dream
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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by re:dream » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:31 pm

beats me wrote:Yes, it’s horrifying to think we’re going to be living in a world where musicians and composers will only be able to utilize the license free 12,324,463 sounds available in affordable software and acoustic instruments and the voices of some 7 billion people minus those already captured by the major recording industry. Creative process killed. What’s next, people marrying their horse?
Obviously the creative process is not killed. But some kinds of creativity will be closed off.

I have some nice samples of Tracey Thorn singing the opening lines of Protection. I would love to turn that into a track. There's no way I can do that. Soundcloud will take it down, and in the unlikely event that I ever release an album, I would have the lawyer's after me the moment I do that. I find that frustrating, and would have liked a copyright system that allows for people to creatively re-use other people's audio.

H20nly
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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by H20nly » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:32 pm

beats me wrote:Yes, it’s horrifying to think we’re going to be living in a world where musicians and composers will only be able to utilize the license free 12,324,463 sounds available in affordable software and acoustic instruments and the voices of some 7 billion people minus those already captured by the major recording industry. Creative process killed.
what's horrifying is that 12,324,212 of them mostly suck.

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by TomViolenz » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:35 pm

beats me wrote:Yes, it’s horrifying to think we’re going to be living in a world where musicians and composers will only be able to utilize the license free 12,324,463 sounds available in affordable software and acoustic instruments and the voices of some 7 billion people minus those already captured by the major recording industry.
that's exactly what the blurred lines guys did
didn't seem to help them much

re:dream
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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by re:dream » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Yup, they got nailed on a kind of 'look and feel' ticket 8O

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Re: Crowd-funding wants to pay back Amen Break creator

Post by H20nly » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:40 pm

agreed. I tend to think it was bullshit. It's like the courts have decided that you can't make music that sounds like anything that inspired you or played a part in your youth.

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