Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

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mylkoa
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by mylkoa » Wed May 18, 2016 10:01 pm

stringtapper wrote: No, but their ratings and advertising revenue might. Follow the money…
Welcome back, stringtrapper. Glad to have in the conversation :) Yeah - you hit the nail on the head. No dispute there.
stringtapper wrote:But I return to my question… is it a bad thing that people engage in celebrity worship?
That's a great point to bring up. I think the key to this question (one that really applies to most philosophical/rhetorical discussions) is that we don't berate others or their beliefs/choices. I think there's a difference between criticism and attack. Example - I smoked cigarettes for many years, and many people remarked it was unhealthy and counterproductive, but they did so in a respectful way. But there were a few people (a very few) who would express that opinion in a disrespectful way. One way seems perfectly acceptable to me, indeed, it's an expression of care - while the other is simply abusive behavior. So going back to the idea of celebrity worship being "bad" - I would be careful about language and reductionist thinking. It isn't about parsing something into the dichotomy of being "bad" or "good", so much as it is about finding relationships and correlations. Ultimately, some moral connection could be asserted, but again, the key is maintaining that respectful and non-abusive approach.
stringtapper wrote:I don't care about celebrities but I also don't care about people worshipping celebrities. All of it seems like a weird thing to spend time thinking about to me. I don't really see much a of a difference between spending time thinking about celebrities and spending time thinking about the phenomenon of celebrity, which is ultimately what this thread is about.
I think there are many good reasons to think about the celebrity phenomena. Like I said before, I think celebrity-ism and fame are manifestations of social hierarchy and conditioning. If one wants to promote egalitarian values, and a society with an expanded sense of vision, then it's worth talking about. And even if one doesn't care about egalitarian values, then such a conversation falls under the domain of enquiry for edification (aka philosophy). So if you are asking, "Why practice philosophy?" then there million and one reasons. Philosophy is a precursor to scientific thought, and scientific thought led to the creation of the modern world around us - mathematics, physics, the transistor, the digital age, and eventually Ableton Live. But if that's not enough, I would say that rational thought is the basis for being a human, rather than being any other kind of creature. So ultimately, asking questions, a sense of wonder, curiosity, discussion with peers... these are some of the hallmarks of being human, rather than a jellyfish or an amoeba or a zombie on the Walking Dead :)
stringtapper wrote: And now here I am talking about the phenomenon of people talking about the phenomenon of celebrity.
Well, if it's that unpleasant, then you should avoid it. You have a choice. You have freedom. It's a great luxury! And if you choose to join, and you remain courteous and constructive, then I welcome your contributions! It is a great honor and privilege to connect with other people, and you have an invitation to do so. Cheers.

mylkoa
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by mylkoa » Wed May 18, 2016 10:03 pm

Tarekith wrote:You think that's weird, I get paid to read about the people talking about the phenomenon of people talking about the phenomenon of celebrity.
How so? Are you being paid to read the Ableton forum? That sounds like it would be a great job!

stringtapper
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by stringtapper » Wed May 18, 2016 10:11 pm

mylkoa wrote:
Tarekith wrote:You think that's weird, I get paid to read about the people talking about the phenomenon of people talking about the phenomenon of celebrity.
How so? Are you being paid to read the Ableton forum? That sounds like it would be a great job!
Erik is one of those mods you were threatening me with earlier.
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stringtapper
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by stringtapper » Wed May 18, 2016 10:38 pm

I'm curious how you reconcile this…
mylkoa wrote:So going back to the idea of celebrity worship being "bad" - I would be careful about language and reductionist thinking. It isn't about parsing something into the dichotomy of being "bad" or "good", so much as it is about finding relationships and correlations. Ultimately, some moral connection could be asserted, but again, the key is maintaining that respectful and non-abusive approach.
…with this…
mylkoa wrote:I think the celebrity phenomena is destructive an unhealthy, and I won't engage in it.
…?

In fact, if one chose to, one could consider that your use of the terms "destructive" and "unhealthy" are just as inflammatory as those words you objected to in my first post.

I personally wouldn't, but I also don't consider the words I used to be inflammatory. Horses for courses.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by Machinesworking » Thu May 19, 2016 1:20 am

The elephant in the room.
the real reason for not liking celebrity worship is IMO because it's not the celebrities you think should be worshiped.
Would anyone really care if we were talking about Einstein? MLK? Bob Moog? Insert someone famous you see as a good person here... Everyone has people they think are really cool for what they did, for how they behave in interviews etc. Maybe not insanely ecstatic if they met them, but maybe the highlight of your day that you ran into them in the grocery store.

Hero worship is a weird phenomena for sure, but it's not like my intellectualizing gets rid of the basic premise behind it. We're social creatures, I'm a huge fan of Throbbing Gristle, if the keyboard player was at a party I was at I would be 100% more interested in talking to him than the other guests, in odd the chance that we hit it off. Maybe that's a much more mild version of what we're talking about here, but in the realest sense it's the same, his output gives me a greater respect for him without meeting him, because it's something I enjoy.

I would be willing to bet that all of you also have people you think produce art or some other thing that makes you respect them without actually knowing them, and that's not abnormal or something to be against. IMO the whole reason people feel the need to be anti celebrity etc. is because it's generally celebrities you're not interested in who get the most attention. That, and people subscribe a lot more than a mild amount of importance to the famous, in a way they "super-anthropomorphize" the famous, assign personalities and trait to them outside of human ability.

mylkoa
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by mylkoa » Thu May 19, 2016 2:43 pm

Machinesworking wrote:the real reason for not liking celebrity worship is IMO because it's not the celebrities you think should be worshiped. Would anyone really care if we were talking about Einstein? MLK? Bob Moog?
I would certainly feel less averse to spending a lot of time and social energy toward a person like MLK or Einstein, because they affected society on some fundamental levels, but even in those cases, I think the healthy approach is not to emphasize their persona, but rather their social contributions and achievements. I don't want to glorify Einstein or MLK as people, I want to celebrate and memorialize their contributions to civil rights and scientific progress.
Machinesworking wrote: IMO the whole reason people feel the need to be anti celebrity etc. is because it's generally celebrities you're not interested in who get the most attention.
Maybe that's the case for some people, but I'm disinclined to glorify anyone - even people I admire. I think there's a difference between spending time thinking or talking about an achievement or contribution, versus talking about a person. It would be like focusing on a symbol, rather than what the symbol represents. The map is not the territory... that sort of thing.
Machinesworking wrote:That, and people subscribe a lot more than a mild amount of importance to the famous, in a way they "super-anthropomorphize" the famous, assign personalities and trait to them outside of human ability.
That's a key point in my opinion. I don't want to raise people onto a pedestal that separates them excessively from the rest of humanity - that seems very clear and reasonable IMO. But, where to draw the line on what is "excessive" is a much more open to debate.

H20nly
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by H20nly » Thu May 19, 2016 9:20 pm

Machinesworking wrote: the real reason for not liking celebrity worship is IMO because it's not the celebrities you think should be worshiped.
Would anyone really care if we were talking about Einstein? MLK? Bob Moog? Insert someone famous you see as a good person here... Everyone has people they think are really cool for what they did, for how they behave in interviews etc. Maybe not insanely ecstatic if they met them, but maybe the highlight of your day that you ran into them in the grocery store.
on that note i had a weird celebrity-ish experience recently...

i was at a small cocktail party and met K.Flay's parents. i first heard of K.Flay on page 2 here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194550&start=15. i've since become a fan of not only her music but how she got to where she is with it.

so her dad asked where i'd heard of her... and i told him. he was tickled that i knew as much as i do about her (and normally would not in a similar scenario - see Prince, Bowie, MJ). they were really kind and interesting people (and their daughter's story is a good one). i was pretty stoked when i left. so yeah, 8) it kinda was the highlight of my day... i would be bummed if she died, for a lot of reasons.

beats me
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Re: Anti-Celebrity. Anti-Fame.

Post by beats me » Fri May 20, 2016 1:47 pm

H20nly wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: the real reason for not liking celebrity worship is IMO because it's not the celebrities you think should be worshiped.
Would anyone really care if we were talking about Einstein? MLK? Bob Moog? Insert someone famous you see as a good person here... Everyone has people they think are really cool for what they did, for how they behave in interviews etc. Maybe not insanely ecstatic if they met them, but maybe the highlight of your day that you ran into them in the grocery store.
on that note i had a weird celebrity-ish experience recently...

i was at a small cocktail party and met K.Flay's parents. i first heard of K.Flay on page 2 here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194550&start=15. i've since become a fan of not only her music but how she got to where she is with it.

so her dad asked where i'd heard of her... and i told him. he was tickled that i knew as much as i do about her (and normally would not in a similar scenario - see Prince, Bowie, MJ). they were really kind and interesting people (and their daughter's story is a good one). i was pretty stoked when i left. so yeah, 8) it kinda was the highlight of my day... i would be bummed if she died, for a lot of reasons.

I went to a Howard Jones concert about 10 or so years ago, well past his prime, and the people running the swag booth were his parents. Really nice people. I ordered an upcoming CD from them and his mom hand wrote a letter with it thanking me for supporting their son. :)

So meeting artist's parents inserts some humanity into them, creates memories, and makes you realize they are just people too. They didn't beam here from another planet with instruments in hand.

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