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Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:09 am
by antic604
https://www.bitwig.com/en/bitwig-studio/bitwig-studio-2 - it's a mixed bag of some cool added features, some other that were promised but are not delivered and some controversy around new licensing model. Still, it's a new version to be excited about :)

What about Live 10? Is it realistic to expect something at NAMM 2017 which starts next week :?:

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:45 am
by zsazsa
I'd prefer a live 9.8
Improvements without having to pay for a new version :lol:

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:38 am
by antic604
zsazsa wrote:I'd prefer a live 9.8
Improvements without having to pay for a new version :lol:
Wouldn't we all? :)

But I wouldn't mind paying if it was something substantial.
Hopefully something is revealed at NAMM.
They should respond somehow to Bitwig's announcement.
I even have a feeling, that Bitwig went ahead with their announcement because they KNOW Ableton has some big news on NAMM that'd still their thunder. At least I hope that's the case :)

Or maybe they're running out of money, because you can buy 1.3 now for 300EUR/USD and are eligible for free update to 2.0 which will cost 380EUR / 400USD on release?

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:11 pm
by TomKern
The only thing from Bitwig I want in Live is the program wide modulation options. (and maybe poly AT).

Otherwise I'm pretty much fine with Live as is.
I doubt I will even update to 10. (unless the above is part of the update)
But they should definitely give the enhancements they gave to Simpler to Sampler as well. But I'd be pretty pissed if I had to pay for an update for that.

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:18 pm
by doghouse
I was hoping to never read about Bitwig again in this forum :cry:

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:23 pm
by TomKern
doghouse wrote:I was hoping to never read about Bitwig again in this forum :cry:
Why?

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:33 pm
by Stromkraft
antic604 wrote:https://www.bitwig.com/en/bitwig-studio/bitwig-studio-2 - it's a mixed bag of some cool added features, some other that were promised but are not delivered and some controversy around new licensing model. Still, it's a new version to be excited about :)

What about Live 10? Is it realistic to expect something at NAMM 2017 which starts next week :?:
Well, if we read the tea leaves we can consider the fact there is no current beta version of Live. I don't know. It comes when it comes. I don't want new features, except the ones that should have been in already in 9.0 or 9.5. I want stability and bugs and inconsistencies fixed. Live is a music production work horse. There are very few big update aspects that are needed IMHO.

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:54 pm
by Angstrom
Cant say I'm impressed with their new updates license.
https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/new-license-model.html

You buy the app and get 12 months of updates.
Then additional years of updates cost you $169 every year.

So, if there is a new feature added on month 8 and it causes some terrible bug that cripples your system, but only gets fixed on month 13 ... Pay up sucker!

you can keep using the most recent version you legitimately had a license for, so its not like Adobe's subscription system - but Bitwig is not without bugs, persistent long lived bugs, and now if there a bug like they have had previously you wont see it fixed!

Their carrot is "you will see new features developed" but that looks like a hollow carrot when the promised feature "modular daw" is now not in version 2, and may only be in version 3, or perhaps never! so how does that make these promises seem?

It seems a very bad idea to me. And I think a few others agree!

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:01 pm
by beats me
Angstrom wrote:Cant say I'm impressed with their new updates license.
https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/new-license-model.html

You buy the app and get 12 months of updates.
Then additional years of updates cost you $169 every year.
That’s preposterous, and I don’t think they are relevant or “gold standard” enough to pull that off successfully. Sounds more like a win for Ableton (until they announce something similar)

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:11 pm
by garyboozy
i've been using the alpha for a few months and the modulation system is brilliantly done. there's a lot to love in V2, but again, there's lots of features that have withered on the vine. given their new-kid-on-the-block status - with a history of shaky stability since release - their 'brave leap of faith' into a yearly price is a real head-scratche, one that could hugely backfire. a few people over at kvr are banding around the figure of €99 a year, which sounds much more realistic to me, but there's no way they can -or will- go back on that price now. hope it works out for them and all, but yeesh!

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:36 pm
by Tarekith
It's definitely a very interesting approach to take given that they still haven't released some of the big features that were supposed to make them different from other DAWs.

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:42 pm
by Angstrom
I can understand their thinking, but it's worrying from a developer because they plainly haven't understood their glaring vulnerabilities.

Personally I like people doing application specification to be pragmatic, rather than optimistic. An underlying assumption to their choice is : " I'm sure we wont have any bugs in 12 months" and "With recurring license billing we can make new features whenever we like, and user will enjoy that".

I would counter that with the obvious observation : New features bring new bugs. Bitwig is kinda known for taking a while to fix outstanding bugs such as "the whitescreen of death" .

Also "Pay money now and we'll give you some unspecified new features in the future 12 months, probably, or not, depends how we feel, just trust us OK" is not an attractive strategy. It's a Kickstarter.
Especially as they have a track record of not delivering on promises, such as the whole Modular Daw thing which just kinda evaporated.

I predict in 11 months there will be a bunch of bugs and a bunch of angry users.

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:43 pm
by stringtapper
garyboozy wrote:i've been using the alpha for a few months and the modulation system is brilliantly done.
So is the modulation feature anything like they advertised early on for an eventual 2.0 release?

The impression I got was that the modular environment would be something like a limited Max For Live that's built-in from the ground up. Is that not what it has become?

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:50 pm
by garyboozy
stringtapper wrote:The impression I got was that the modular environment would be something like a limited Max For Live that's built-in from the ground up. Is that not what it has become?
all of the devices are actually built using the modular system, but it's not accessible to end users yet.
it is still coming, but this new modulation system means i have no desire to get under the hood anymore.

https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/behind-the ... arity.html

Re: Bitwig 2 was just announced. What about Live 10?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:52 pm
by login
BW is now more expensive than live (even paying full price).

In 8 years if Live maintains the 4 year cycle with live you would spend 1000 (for suite plus an update). In Bitwig 1580.

I don't think they are being smart at all, just milking their loyal users. 169 per year is insane IMHO, maybe something between 69 and 100 could make sense.


Also I don't like when companies introduce new models which are detrimental to users and lower the expectations, BW came with two:

1.- You only get 12 months of updates, even if buying the full product (399), instead of getting a full version cycle updates.
2.- After that you pay upfront to expect new features, which you don't know what they are, or when they will come, instead of paying for advertised features.

Looks like a win for the company and a loss for the consumer.