The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
[erm]
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by [erm] » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:18 pm

You can sign up to submit and vote for feature requests here:

https://ableton.centercode.com

Please search first to make sure that someone hasn't already submitted the same idea as you before posting it as new. And of course the Feature Requests section of the forum here is monitored as well, though via Centercode voting it's easier to see exactly how popular an idea is.
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antic604
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by antic604 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:19 pm

[erm] wrote:You can sign up to submit and vote for feature requests here:

https://ableton.centercode.com

Please search first to make sure that someone hasn't already submitted the same idea as you before posting it as new. And of course the Feature Requests section of the forum here is monitored as well, though via Centercode voting it's easier to see exactly how popular an idea is.
Oh, thanks! I registered there long time ago, but somehow never was able to find that :)

Stefan Jantschek
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Stefan Jantschek » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:28 pm

[erm] wrote:There's no link to the forum on the main page, because too many people were assuming it was an official outlet for support requests. It's just not the most efficient way to deal with customer problems and track issues compared to one on one support via the links we do provide. The forums are provided for user to user discussions, a chance for you all to discuss music related ideas, and help each other out with problems. It's also monitored by MANY of us at Ableton to gauge what type of functionality people want, what issues are occuring, what the general pulse of our user base is in regards to Live.

Despite what some forum members claim, this has had no impact on the number of people visiting these forums. It's still the most visited area of the Ableton website by far. For those that don't already know about the forums, typing "ableton forum" into any search engine still links you right here as the first result. For now at least, I don't see this causing us to change how people access the forums.
I believe we can all agree that this missing frontpage-link is a minor concern.
And it is possibly true that is doesn´t affect the user counts that much.

I always perceived the main critics about the new forum handling as a sort of user monolog.
It´s always great to hear that Abletons are "monitoring" it.
But don´t you think that heartily conversation needs two ends of the line?

:D

TomKern
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by TomKern » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:34 pm

[erm] wrote:There's no link to the forum on the main page, because too many people were assuming it was an official outlet for support requests. It's just not the most efficient way to deal with customer problems and track issues compared to one on one support via the links we do provide. The forums are provided for user to user discussions, a chance for you all to discuss music related ideas, and help each other out with problems. It's also monitored by MANY of us at Ableton to gauge what type of functionality people want, what issues are occuring, what the general pulse of our user base is in regards to Live.

Despite what some forum members claim, this has had no impact on the number of people visiting these forums. It's still the most visited area of the Ableton website by far. For those that don't already know about the forums, typing "ableton forum" into any search engine still links you right here as the first result. For now at least, I don't see this causing us to change how people access the forums.
Ok that's interesting. I guess I stand corrected then.
I wonder though; while maybe the visitor numbers haven't dropped, the posting frequency certainly has.
Any idea why that is? :?

hyperscientist
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by hyperscientist » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:37 pm

[erm] wrote:It's also monitored by MANY of us at Ableton to gauge what type of functionality people want, what issues are occuring, what the general pulse of our user base is in regards to Live.
I think the core issue is that users can't monitor Ableton back and get a feeling of what Ableton's general pulse is, also in regards to Live. ;-)

[erm]
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by [erm] » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:40 pm

Stefan Jantschek wrote:It´s always great to hear that Abletons are "monitoring" it.
But don´t you think that heartily conversation needs two ends of the line?
Years ago Ableton employees definitely participated in the forums more, but unfortunately it often just let to issues. Priorities change, schedules get adjusted, features talked about maybe weren't implemented as initially hinted at, etc. It all led to many users being not only overly demanding, but just flat out rude or disrespectful to the very people trying to be more open with them. I think it's safe to say that these days we prefer to wait until we actually have something exciting to show people before talking about it.

Even if you're not a beat maker. :wink:
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[erm]
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by [erm] » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:43 pm

TomKern wrote:I wonder though; while maybe the visitor numbers haven't dropped, the posting frequency certainly has.
Any idea why that is? :?
I don't think that's the case actually. If the number of overall posts have dropped (and I'm not saying they have), it's probably just because we no longer allow people to talk about whatever unrelated topics they want to. So many valid and legitimate posts were buried under unrelated and often offensive replies a couple years ago, it was just turning people away.

I would say that if anything we have more on-topic posts and helpful replies than ever before here on the forums.
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by icehouse » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:58 pm

[erm] wrote:
TomKern wrote:I wonder though; while maybe the visitor numbers haven't dropped, the posting frequency certainly has.
Any idea why that is? :?
I don't think that's the case actually. If the number of overall posts have dropped (and I'm not saying they have), it's probably just because we no longer allow people to talk about whatever unrelated topics they want to. So many valid and legitimate posts were buried under unrelated and often offensive replies a couple years ago, it was just turning people away.

I would say that if anything we have more on-topic posts and helpful replies than ever before here on the forums.
Can we at least get a "IGNORE" button for certain participants in these forums?
There is a lot of great responses, but, there is one participant that kills the flow of topics with 'I know it all' responses and just directs the topic into unnecessary territory.

[erm]
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by [erm] » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:03 pm

We are currently looking into forum improvements, though I don't know if that will be included. If you have an issues with a user not following the community guidelines, you're welcome to PM myself or [jur] about it and we'll look into it.
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Stefan Jantschek
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Stefan Jantschek » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:10 pm

[erm] wrote:
Stefan Jantschek wrote:It´s always great to hear that Abletons are "monitoring" it.
But don´t you think that heartily conversation needs two ends of the line?
Years ago Ableton employees definitely participated in the forums more, but unfortunately it often just let to issues. Priorities change, schedules get adjusted, features talked about maybe weren't implemented as initially hinted at, etc. It all led to many users being not only overly demanding, but just flat out rude or disrespectful to the very people trying to be more open with them. I think it's safe to say that these days we prefer to wait until we actually have something exciting to show people before talking about it.

Even if you're not a beat maker. :wink:
Comprehensible decision focused on that aspect.
There might have been trouble.

But there was a great liaison between Abes and users too.
That made Ableton and Live what it is now.
The feeling that all of us were part of that creation.
Compared to put a decision in front of users.
There are still lots of people here who make dialog precious.
Do they get the statements they deserve?
Does this really need to be sacrificed for some honks with serious communication flaws?
Don´t we have other ways to get rid of them??

:wink:
Last edited by Stefan Jantschek on Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TomKern
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by TomKern » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:13 pm

[erm] wrote:
TomKern wrote:I wonder though; while maybe the visitor numbers haven't dropped, the posting frequency certainly has.
Any idea why that is? :?
I don't think that's the case actually. If the number of overall posts have dropped (and I'm not saying they have), it's probably just because we no longer allow people to talk about whatever unrelated topics they want to. So many valid and legitimate posts were buried under unrelated and often offensive replies a couple years ago, it was just turning people away.

I would say that if anything we have more on-topic posts and helpful replies than ever before here on the forums.
Really?! 8O

I'm not talking about the Lounge, that has certainly been affected by the topic ban.

But the main music production forum often hardly has any movement or new threads added for days now.
I would say what happens there in a week now, took place in a day just 3-4 years ago.

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Angstrom » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:19 pm

I suspect that the reason for the low-ish post count is mainly due to the current version being stuck on 9 for a while. But also there are a lot more Youtube learning resources these days. I bet most people sign up for an online course, go to a local meet up, or just watch YouTube videos.

Even so - a new version of Live would reinvigorate the forum ( That's not a very musical end-goal though!)
Most users ever online was 652 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:53 pm
The latest major release of Live, Version 9, was released on March 5, 2013.

On the topic of communication:
Personally I still wish for a developers blog. Their Twitter is semi-interesting, but it's not as good as having a UX guy blogging about the challenges of representing sound manipulation controls, having the DSP team talk about filters ... or even ...their information architects talking about the challenges of of delivering a multimedia library of sounds, songs, devices, 3rd party content - to a diverse userbase in an intuitive way.
Personally I would find that both interesting and reassuring.

I've said before: Post 2010 Ableton has the appearance of a shiny corporate monolith, and that's not reassuring.
Show me the real people and I'll believe in their vision. The best thing I've seen recently from Ableton was the video featuring that guy who made the Tuner. It was honest enough. "We were working on some visualisation stuff and I realised I could do this Tuner right now, so we did it as a surprise release".
Marketing departments buff everything to a sheen of impersonal instagram lifestyle crap. I do not care about some hot looking DJ. I am not a horny media consumer.

Give me a blog from the weird developer who is far too excited about zero delay filters and his fanatical obsession with aliasing. That's what I want.

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by antic604 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:26 pm

Angstrom wrote:But also there are a lot more Youtube learning resources these days. I bet most people sign up for an online course, go to a local meet up, or just watch YouTube videos.
Or Facebook's group(s). My favourite question from yesterday: "I produce EDM. What are notes?" :lol:

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by antic604 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:28 pm

Angstrom wrote:Personally I still wish for a developers blog. Their Twitter is semi-interesting, but it's not as good as having a UX guy blogging about the challenges of representing sound manipulation controls, having the DSP team talk about filters ... or even ...their information architects talking about the challenges of of delivering a multimedia library of sounds, songs, devices, 3rd party content - to a diverse userbase in an intuitive way. (...) Give me a blog from the weird developer who is far too excited about zero delay filters and his fanatical obsession with aliasing. That's what I want.
God, I'd love this so much!

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:45 pm

Stefan Jantschek wrote: Did you see the video on the Abe´s site about their devs culture?
And the talk about "creating the future of music"?
So let me sum this up:
Why does almost nothing of the stuff you could see there reach the user?
Not even talks about?
What is the reason?
It´s not about specific needs or features.
But proclaiming to create the future while the product falls more and more behind the standards
of 2017´s software possibilities is some kind of strange, isn´t it?
I can't name one DAW developer that has every future leaning function in their DAW.
I can name 5 or more DAWs that have features that are future leaning the others do not have or do poorly. I can't name any developer that blogs about future functionality, that hasn't disappointed the end users by not delivering said functionality in x time frame.

There is no win for Ableton here, your ideas on what is future leaning for Live are probably not the same as mine. I like Live for live performance, so to me MainStage type patch changing would be a huge improvement, since you say you don't use Live that way maybe some non performance feature like Cubase's Note Expression or VCA faders would be a huge deal to you. If Live got more involved in integrating with other software that would be another huge deal to me you might not care about. Regardless if they have a sneak peak at future developments one of us is going to be upset. Owning Push 2 improvements there are always welcome, but those who do not couldn't care about that etc. etc.

Mostly I've stopped thinking of Live or Logic or DP etc etc. as somehow more than a tool. My workflow shouldn't and isn't anymore affected by some lack in a DAW etc. I was super excited about Bitwig before it was announced, anticipated maybe somehow the developers that left Ableton to start Bitwig were thinking just like I do about workflow etc. They don't, and they're already of course behind in developments they hinted at 3-4 years ago at their start, no web collaboration features yet, no integrated modular system built into the core....

Every DAW forum has dozens of people who think the latest version of DAW x is the beginning of the decline, the end times for said DAW. This thread has a video blog at the beginning with someone who is really happy in Cubase, that's great, but Steinberg are more than brutal when it comes to development cycles, bugs, feature issues and user complaints. Cubase Mac was crippled in terms of low latency performance, just a total CPU pig up until a few years ago, we're talking ten years of crippled. Bugs in v3 were promised in updates, then abandoned and reintroduced in v4. For years Cubase was the bug ridden DAW... but yeah it gets all the latest features...
My other DAW Digital Performer 9.12 has a new feature that renders all unarmed tracks to save CPU cycles, it's a huge project, and there are a lot of power users who have had to go back to previous versions of DP because the complexity of their setups exposes things in the update that cripple their systems. Some feel that Logic is becoming Garage Band Pro, it suffers immense scrutiny under Apple, even with some 'future' leaning features.


There is no greener grass, the unfinished songs on your hard drive are not there because of limitations in the software. People were making music with command line interfaces at one point, it's amazing how good we have it. For Chrissakes DAWs themselves are half the price they were ten years ago! Logic Pro was $799 then, same with Cubase, DP etc.

Yes, Ableton have not made us pay for a "real" upgrade, that's a good thing considering how much of the updates have been to improve Push. Makes perfect sense, but it's come at a complete upgrade cycle, and in that way I feel you. Hopefully they introduce things that excite you, but like I said, be sure that they will not introduce everything you want, no DAW will.
Oh, and rest assured they are working on a new version, there's no way they can't be. It's been forever since they charged for a software upgrade, and there are features people want that make sense for them to integrate. Poly aftertouch or something that addresses it makes sense for instance, (considering Push is poly aftertouch capable), collaboration features for sure, hopefully workflow improvements etc. etc. Personally owning Suite I sort of don't look forward to it, it's an upgrade chunk only matched by Komplete Ultimate in price.

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