The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

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[jur]
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by [jur] » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:10 pm

Machinesworking wrote: There is no greener grass, the unfinished songs on your hard drive are not there because of limitations in the software.
Thanks, I was about to tell this :wink:

About the "future". Just think about the number of Live users! As Roger Linn said (and other prominent instruments inventors) @ Loop : if defining the future of music making was about to listen to the user base's ideas, we'd all end up making the same instrument. Food for thoughts.
15+ years ago, 2 lonely german guys had an idea and developed what became Live...
I can assure you that a lot of very creative people are hanging around, sharing and debating ideas at the headquarter.
Thinking about "what the future of music making with a computer could be" when you deal with such a huge user base is not a piece of cake. But Ableton now organise Loop every year and invite clever people to talk about this very question and stole their ideas :-)
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Machinesworking
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:02 pm

[jur] wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: There is no greener grass, the unfinished songs on your hard drive are not there because of limitations in the software.
Thanks, I was about to tell this :wink:
I would add the grass is just different, and if that's what it takes to jump start you, then go ahead, but limitations exist in every piece of software out there, there are workflow issues with every piece of software as well.

Live does audio pitch and time stretching very well, it's 100% the easiest software to write verse chorus music with, or to play around with loops until they become a song. Huge linear arrangements ala film scoring etc. it's not the easiest to work with, but it's of course possible.


I will always have huge amounts of loops that go nowhere in my drives, that's not Live, that's the nature of brainstorming ideas, some never reach fruition. I have as many in DP, Renoise, and Logic. It's just how it works for me and many others. You know what different about Live than 90% of the other DAWs out there though? I can go through and render those loops as audio files, toss them as Clips in a Session Live set, then maybe come up with something that way.

Mostly these threads happen every time Live is long overdue for an upgrade. :)

hyperscientist
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by hyperscientist » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:09 pm

Wise words, Machinesworking & [jur], but despite knowing it all I don't think that I will ever stop being bothered by inability to use my Seaboard RISE or by the lack of multiple MIDI tracks editing (when composing for many instruments) or more things like it… They don't exactly stop me from making music, but are pretty damn close for certain things!

Oh gawddammit, just release Live 10 already! Or at least continue dropping hints like "Roger Linn is here just to say few things, nothing else really, we swear!" - that is actually encouraging :-)

Machinesworking
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:32 pm

hyperscientist wrote:Wise words, Machinesworking & [jur], but despite knowing it all I don't think that I will ever stop being bothered by inability to use my Seaboard RISE or by the lack of multiple MIDI tracks editing (when composing for many instruments) or more things like it… They don't exactly stop me from making music, but are pretty damn close for certain things!

Oh gawddammit, just release Live 10 already! Or at least continue dropping hints like "Roger Linn is here just to say few things, nothing else really, we swear!" - that is actually encouraging :-)
Honestly if I had a Rise I would use Bitwig or Cubase. Other software doesn't work well with that thing yet. I do believe Ableton are hard at work on advanced instrument integration, it's an area they really need to address now that Bitwig is addressing it and copping their basic strengths. I'm liking that Live seems to be worried about performance again, and that's going to be a good thing for composers as well.

I wouldn't wait around for it if you can hear yourself playing music you love on the Rise though, it's not like romantic relationships, you can always return to Live when they get proper support for devices you love, Live won't make you feel bad about using other DAWs in the meantime when you come back to it. :)

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:39 am

For something like Seaboard Rise and vst3 support, there has been no mention that these features ought to be expected in Live 10.

What if Live 10 drops with plenty of new features and absolutely none of the ones you were dreaming of? Would you be anxious for Live 11?

This makes me curious though. What is the absolute minimum criteria they would expect to include in an upgrade. Something like vst3 is a way to kind of have the daw ready to face future tasks. Something like, a certain keyboard shortcut or particular workflow change are things that one might be happy enough to see appear in Live 9.

But that brings to mind another question. What are things which seem reasonably applicable in the current version. And what are features that would pretty much require a full version upgrade due to either massive changes in the core of Live or due to it being costly.

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Stefan Jantschek » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:01 am

Machinesworking wrote:There is no greener grass, the unfinished songs on your hard drive are not there because of limitations in the software.
Ehhm...
Did i ever say this?
I was writing "ask yourself why they are there".
If they are.

If you assume that could be because of software limitations - O.K.
But that´s not my intention of thoughts.
Again, i don´t call Live limited.

That´s why i was mentioning Abletons headquarter.
Jur wrote:I can assure you that a lot of very creative people are hanging around, sharing and debating ideas at the headquarter.
Thinking about "what the future of music making with a computer could be" when you deal with such a huge user base is not a piece of cake.
Is it so difficult to see some correlation?

:roll:
Last edited by Stefan Jantschek on Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

antic604
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by antic604 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:32 am

Machinesworking wrote:There is no greener grass, the unfinished songs on your hard drive are not there because of limitations in the software.
Well that depends, doesn't it? In my case, being 40 with 3 kids (including one at 7 months) and a full-time job I have maybe 2-3h / week for making music, so every minute of that time is precious. If I have to fiddle with GUI zoom back & forth to see what I edit, keep track of which & where clips I changed to update the others, wait for M4L to boot and load devices that should've been native, add a new audio track and re-sample my MIDI if I want to do a one-off edit/effect; all those seconds & minutes pile up to a tangible share of my music-making time. And mostly it's not about the time, but about breaking the creative flow. To this day it boggles my mind that if I want to zoom in in the Arranger I need to hold the ruler bar and drag down! Why not mouse wheel? Why down?! Sure, probably some of those issues are compensated elsewhere by Live's powerful features like racks, signal routing, high-quality & flexible native devices, Session view for storing and trying out the ideas, etc. But it's so annoying to realise that most of above mentioned issues can be easily solved if Ableton paid attention to user's requests, making Live hands down the best DAW.

I couldn't care less for a new loops pack or stupidly obvious tips in "One Thing"...

It's like buying a EUR 100k car with all bells & whistles, that has a rotary handles to open & close the windows.

Get the basics right first!



And yet, I'm sticking with it because for all it's quirks and shortcomings I love it :P :)

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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by studiojohnny » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:38 pm

antic604 wrote:Get the basics right first!
Exactly. +1

Machinesworking
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Re: The future of Live - should we worry? (video)

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:28 pm

antic604 wrote: If I have to fiddle with GUI zoom back & forth to see what I edit, keep track of which & where clips I changed to update the others, wait for M4L to boot and load devices that should've been native, add a new audio track and re-sample my MIDI if I want to do a one-off edit/effect; all those seconds & minutes pile up to a tangible share of my music-making time. And mostly it's not about the time, but about breaking the creative flow. To this day it boggles my mind that if I want to zoom in in the Arranger I need to hold the ruler bar and drag down! Why not mouse wheel? Why down?! Sure, probably some of those issues are compensated elsewhere by Live's powerful features like racks, signal routing, high-quality & flexible native devices, Session view for storing and trying out the ideas, etc. But it's so annoying to realise that most of above mentioned issues can be easily solved if Ableton paid attention to user's requests, making Live hands down the best DAW.

I couldn't care less for a new loops pack or stupidly obvious tips in "One Thing"...

It's like buying a EUR 100k car with all bells & whistles, that has a rotary handles to open & close the windows.

Get the basics right first!
Back to this, the problem is always the same, doesn't matter which DAW you use. Go look at that the Feature Request section here, you'll find that 99% of the request are completely different than yours. Maybe one of you requests will be the same at most.
Mouse wheel zooming, my guess is never, because despite the amount of people who do not use Live to play live, it's going to have safety features that prevent accidents live. Using mouse wheel zooming in DP9 is great, but occasionally it messes up a fader or knobs settings, kind of the nature of mouse wheels while editing. Mostly I think of DAWs for what they offer now, and send in requests to the developers.
DP also gets people worrying about the future of the product, I would guess only Cubase and Reaper do not, they probably have people complaining about the usability of the product, because both are in a mad rush to implement new features without much concern for problems with existing,..... the whole thing is kind of amusing after 16 odd years with internet forums and DAWs, the products have always been amazing, with the occasional issue, but a godsend compared to what we used to deal with in the past.

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