Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

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TomKern
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by TomKern » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:41 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
TomKern wrote: Your assertion that this time it will all just work out and they finally:
a.) make M4L integrated enough that the issues I mentioned in a post above (which you also seem to have ignored) will all be solved.
b.) go back to developing Live on equal or greater footing

Are just that, assertions. Others might even call them fantasies based on naivety.
Again:
M4L is not going away.
It's obvious that some things you want will be implemented as M4L devices, despite your grievances on their public forum.
Deeper integration between M4L and Live would logically mean that bugs or issues have a better chance than they do right now of being solved.

In italics, I think you're missing my point over and over again.
I'm not living in some world where I believe that Ableton are going to make a native LFO, because so far they haven't, it's been years now.
If they do, I'll be happy, but in the mean time I will welcome changes that give the possibility of less bugs, deeper integration and better implementation.

My trajectory on M4L, thought it was a bad idea at the start, two separate code bases that entangled can lead to issues, which I noticed right away in the Live 8 beta. (they of course already had code in the beta related to M4L, they had announced the partnership etc.) I didn't buy 8 until I had heard it was stable for the most part about 9 months later. That was what? 4 years ago? It's obvious that M4l is going nowhere, I rarely use it myself, my Live needs are mostly live performance oriented, I'm not a tinkerer who comes up with things by accident so a lot of what Live and M4L offer isn't for me. All that said, it's obvious that Ableton are committed to M4L and integrating the experience even further. That can only lead to cleaner integration, since as of now it's got warts, it's what you and others are saying right?

You can worry about it of course, but what option is there besides deeper implementation that isn't you just wanting Live to not use M4L for various functions? It's obvious Ableton will use M4L to patch in things, that you won't be happy with that, so why are you using it? In all sincerity to be as negative as you are about the direction of a company and to still use that companies product is just masochistic.
Lol, what are you on about?! Masochistic, patently insane. We are talking about the integration of software we use not my sex-life and you are not my ex last time I checked. So lay off the personal touch a bit.

And I'm only negative of this particular development and the slow progress we witnessed in the last years. Doesn't mean I'm not happy with Live. It's a great program I use every day for many hours. And I plan to do so for the forseeable future. I learned to live without a native LFO. I simply use Cableguys MIDI shaper. It's cumbersome because I have to route it out and then back in via MIDI loop back, but other than that it works great. Certainly much better than that hack job Ableton delivered.
The only negative reaction of mine as far as Ableton is concerned would be that I don't up-grade when Live 10 comes out. Which will happen anyways if they don't give Sampler time stretch capabilities.

Anyways.... /shrug

[jur]
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by [jur] » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:58 am

TomKern wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
TomKern wrote: Your assertion that this time it will all just work out and they finally:
a.) make M4L integrated enough that the issues I mentioned in a post above (which you also seem to have ignored) will all be solved.
b.) go back to developing Live on equal or greater footing

Are just that, assertions. Others might even call them fantasies based on naivety.
Again:
M4L is not going away.
It's obvious that some things you want will be implemented as M4L devices, despite your grievances on their public forum.
Deeper integration between M4L and Live would logically mean that bugs or issues have a better chance than they do right now of being solved.

In italics, I think you're missing my point over and over again.
I'm not living in some world where I believe that Ableton are going to make a native LFO, because so far they haven't, it's been years now.
If they do, I'll be happy, but in the mean time I will welcome changes that give the possibility of less bugs, deeper integration and better implementation.

My trajectory on M4L, thought it was a bad idea at the start, two separate code bases that entangled can lead to issues, which I noticed right away in the Live 8 beta. (they of course already had code in the beta related to M4L, they had announced the partnership etc.) I didn't buy 8 until I had heard it was stable for the most part about 9 months later. That was what? 4 years ago? It's obvious that M4l is going nowhere, I rarely use it myself, my Live needs are mostly live performance oriented, I'm not a tinkerer who comes up with things by accident so a lot of what Live and M4L offer isn't for me. All that said, it's obvious that Ableton are committed to M4L and integrating the experience even further. That can only lead to cleaner integration, since as of now it's got warts, it's what you and others are saying right?

You can worry about it of course, but what option is there besides deeper implementation that isn't you just wanting Live to not use M4L for various functions? It's obvious Ableton will use M4L to patch in things, that you won't be happy with that, so why are you using it? In all sincerity to be as negative as you are about the direction of a company and to still use that companies product is just masochistic.
Lol, what are you on about?! Masochistic, patently insane. We are talking about the integration of software we use not my sex-life and you are not my ex last time I checked. So lay off the personal touch a bit.

And I'm only negative of this particular development and the slow progress we witnessed in the last years. Doesn't mean I'm not happy with Live. It's a great program I use every day for many hours. And I plan to do so for the forseeable future. I learned to live without a native LFO. I simply use Cableguys MIDI shaper. It's cumbersome because I have to route it out and then back in via MIDI loop back, but other than that it works great. Certainly much better than that hack job Ableton delivered.
The only negative reaction of mine as far as Ableton is concerned would be that I don't up-grade when Live 10 comes out. Which will happen anyways if they don't give Sampler time stretch capabilities.

Anyways.... /shrug
Hey dude, you're getting way to much pranky and irrespectful here. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a male contest. You're already going too far right now, so if you mind about this community please think one more time before writing. It's awesome to debate... it sucks as soon as you don't know how to do it with someone else... I'm sure you get what I mean. Consider this as a warn.
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Angstrom
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by Angstrom » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:22 am

Non-fanciful and slightly dull but functional things I would hope this closer integration might bring

1: A closer relationship between the software licensing and rights managements. (Exciting eh!) currently my Max unregisters itself because it takes so long to start that a race condition is played out. I'll spare the long explanation but tighter integration of licenses would be beneficial. Worth mentioning as an aside that the Max pack management is 500% better than Abletons!

2: That when the max window is open the weird latency is removed. As fun as BEAP is, or even programming a sequencer in JS! ... it's fouled by that strange lag which makes the playing unworkable and the beats out of time. We cant edit and play synchronously, we have to save our edit and close the editor then try it out as a device in Live. That's worse than Reaktor and needs fixing, otherwise it just feels reminiscent of split use tool. Editor and player. A very outmoded concept.


Now, back to your scheduled argument.

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:33 am

TomKern wrote: And I'm only negative of this particular development and the slow progress we witnessed in the last years. Doesn't mean I'm not happy with Live.
This particular development IMO is going to take a vastly larger role in the future of Live, that's obvious. So, you're going to be unhappy with the development of Live.

We are witnessing the further merger of Live and Max, that's not speculation. That it's not up to your standards now is obvious, but to speculate that the crystal clear path of a further merger is a negative thing, when you aren't happy with it now, is why I used terms like masochistic. If you're not happy with the development now, to think that it's only going to get worse when it gets deeper integrated, is masochistic ... nothing to do with you personally, it's your statements.

I switched from Logic 8 to DP7 because I wasn't happy with the direction Apple was taking Logic. That's my thinking when asking why don't you switch? You aren't going to be happy with the direction Ableton is going in, and frankly brand loyalty is silly. If Bitwig had come out with a ReWire salve mode that allowed it to host VSTs, or some elegant similar replacement for ReWire out the door I would have switched in a heartbeat.

LOFA
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by LOFA » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:34 am

TomKern wrote:
LOFA wrote: I think both cycling74 and ableton are pretty clear and consistent with their word. Also, they have an established respect for each other that seems quite transparent and established, historically in the public realm.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone is lying, I'm sure they believe what they are saying.
But over the years maintaining two independent code bases, one a merged Live/Max one and one with the same enhancements, but free of anything related to Live will be quite resource intensive. Especially if as Stringtapper and Machinesworking posit the integration gets deeper and deeper.
I don't know the actual numbers, but given Lives popularity I would think that the majority of Max user are M4L users. So all that work year after year will be for satisfying a niche audience. I would not be surprised if the time comes in the not so far future that the Max standalone version will be economically unsustainable for Ableton.

Might not happen, but as a Max standalone user I would be worried. Very worried.
My understanding is that Max is written in JUCE which can't be that different from how Ableton are coding. Assuming that just because they are different packages they can't play nice may be erring on the side of conservative, and possibly to a fault. These guys are professional programmers and they've already expanded their familiarity with one another's work, for several years.

My impression, based on the experience of running / developing unreasonably large sets (for clients, mostly, but also myself) is that there are, indeed, known issues. I can't lie about it. I am a big fan, but I've had major upsets because of unexpected performance. However, maybe Live was never intended to have 50 track sets with an average of 20 devices on each, running endless amounts of commands over udp, at near audio rate. However, if I had to develop that set again, I would do it in max with all of the new Live-based-object, potentially (do you see my implication?)

I think it's possible that some of the issues that haven't been resolved may still be difficult, but that more universal access may facilitate improvements. I honestly can't see how it could possibly be worse.

I can't imagine that max will be economically unsustainable. The implications, if I am not mistaken are that it and Live may be supported on more devices. This opens up huge commercial doors for both applications. Additionally, Ableton seem to take pride in conducting business with a high set of standards. I can't imagine that they would drop the ball on sustaining one of the most creative programming tools, that they share a formative history with.

antic604
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by antic604 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:42 am

Yeah, like some of you I think this merger can lead to better things - it's only good that from now on both teams can have more open access to their respective code bases and can undertake projects together. My dream end-goal would be a complete integration of Max in Live, so that it's not a separate package and that I could open each device and tinkle with it if I wanted (and knew how :)). I'd love if they also forced some common GUI policy, because it's infuriating how some M4L devices look in Live, especially under skins other than the default. Maybe that cooperation would allow them to develop some form of sandboxing for non-native devices, so - inevitable - crashes don't take down the whole Live.

This news, together with the -25% off offer on everything and the fact that betas as of late were largely cosmetic make me hopeful we're gonna hear something announced pretty soon :)

TomKern
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by TomKern » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:34 am

[jur] wrote: Hey dude, you're getting way to much pranky and irrespectful here. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a male contest. You're already going too far right now, so if you mind about this community please think one more time before writing. It's awesome to debate... it sucks as soon as you don't know how to do it with someone else... I'm sure you get what I mean. Consider this as a warn.
8O
Huh?! Did you perhaps mean to address someone else in this thread?! I wasn't the one getting all personal writing about how patently insane and masochistic another poster is.
Last edited by TomKern on Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

TomKern
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by TomKern » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:44 am

Machinesworking wrote: That's my thinking when asking why don't you switch? You aren't going to be happy with the direction Ableton is going in, and frankly brand loyalty is silly.

Why are you talking about me switching all the time? This "If you don't like it, you can leave" rhetoric is really getting a bit much. Can't you accept that some people can criticise things without hating everything? Why don't you start to debate the arguments brought forward and stop discussing assumed personal characteristics and motifs?

Me sticking with Live has nothing to do with brand loyalty, but with me being happy with Live in general. I mean I wrote as much in the post you quoted. I simply posted in a thread about M4L my opinion on it, that's what forums are for you know?! Why do you need to get all personal and try to get me to switch? Can't you take people disagreeing with you?!

Anyways I said my piece. I'm done with this thread

LOFA
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by LOFA » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:31 pm

TomKern wrote:
[jur] wrote: Hey dude, you're getting way to much pranky and irrespectful here. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a male contest. You're already going too far right now, so if you mind about this community please think one more time before writing. It's awesome to debate... it sucks as soon as you don't know how to do it with someone else... I'm sure you get what I mean. Consider this as a warn.
8O
Huh?! Did you perhaps mean to address someone else in this thread?! I wasn't the one getting all personal writing about how patently insane and masochistic another poster is.
Agreed. There's a minor bit of antagonism, but it seems more in the nature of nudging than pranks.

Angstrom
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by Angstrom » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:48 pm

I'm guessing "pranky" = cranky

Machinesworking
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:40 pm

TomKern wrote:
[jur] wrote: Hey dude, you're getting way to much pranky and irrespectful here. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a male contest. You're already going too far right now, so if you mind about this community please think one more time before writing. It's awesome to debate... it sucks as soon as you don't know how to do it with someone else... I'm sure you get what I mean. Consider this as a warn.
8O
Huh?! Did you perhaps mean to address someone else in this thread?! I wasn't the one getting all personal writing about how patently insane and masochistic another poster is.
I think you have a slight ESL issue going on here, forgive me if I'm wrong about it, but I've never called you masochistic or patently insane, I've called your contempt of M4L and your frustration with it's development in Live being put to the forefront for all these years those things. I've never addressed you as a person, just this belief that M4L is corrupting stability and development in Live, which influences your opinion to the point of posting negatively in a thread announcing further integration.
It's a subtle difference, but it is important, in your response to my post on your statements you got personal. I don't know you other than that you're obviously tomviolence, and that you have strong opinions. I harbor no malice towards you, you're only words on a screen to me. :)

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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:58 pm

TomKern wrote:Why don't you start to debate the arguments brought forward
I have, you seem to have missed that in this rush to assume that because I don't agree with you I have a personal issue with you.

M4L is no good in your mind, that's fine I suppose, but it's going to be a problem with your enjoyment of Live in my opinion, because it's going to play an even bigger role in the future, I think this is obvious by the recent acquisition of Cycling 74. That's why I suggested that maybe you would be better off looking at other DAWs, not because of any "Live! love it or leave it!" deal, but because you're obviously not happy with the direction Live is going in.

I respect that you like the core program, but other DAWs exist that do similar things, so why stay around if you're opposed to their biggest merger, biggest "third party" integration? Like I said, I'm a DAW jumper myself, I'm not tied at the hip to Live or DP or Logic, if Cubase solved my needs I wouldn't stick around those other DAWs because I know the key commands.

Live for me works fine, I like the LFOs in Bitwig better, but not enough to put up with Bitwig. Life is about concessions to me, I get that Live will not ever have all the features from other DAWs I like, because I'm not their generic customer. I'm not opposed to complaining about features, but I don't see the point of mass negativity, especially if the most likely outcome is improved stability.

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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by S4racen » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:37 pm

Machinesworking wrote:I don't know you other than that you're obviously tomviolence, and that you have strong opinions.
Good spot!

Cheers
D

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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by Tarekith » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:55 pm

Definitely not the first person to wonder that, though I hope for his sake it isn't true.

TomKern
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Re: Ableton Acquires Cycling '74

Post by TomKern » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:58 pm

8)
Last edited by TomKern on Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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