Live 10 upgrade path

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
Machinesworking
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:40 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
logictoolbox wrote: I feel being penalised for already buying Suite 9 actually offensive. I wont be upgrading or supporting this program anymore as a matter of principle. Its a shame because I have actively supported Ableton since its birth in some pretty big arenas and ok I can afford the upgrade but I totally refuse to support this kind of thing. I bought suite because It seems good to buy into the whole package but i never expected to have to buy into it over and over again. I also no longer feel I can recommend this too my student age clients who don't want to find a sting like this around the corner
Why not get one of the DAWs that gives you lifetime major version updates instead? Which ones are those again? Bitwig? No… Logic? No… Pro Tools? No… Cubase? No… Digital Performer? No…

Help me out here…
Reaper is $69 for people making under $20k a year, around $200 for people who can write it off in their taxes, and roughly the same time in between upgrades, with many more incremental updates that ad new features. DP has always been $199 for any upgrade and 2-5 years is about how long an upgrade lasts. Then there’s FL Studio and Logic. There’s no reasonable argument that Live Suite is competitively priced to be made, and since Ableton are adding in things like LFO fx modulation plug ins to Suite only, there’s not much of a rational argument to be made that standard is in the same league as those DAWs. I’m not trying to knock Ableton, but facts are facts, Live is expensive, and has an expensive upgrade path with no competitive upgrade pricing.

I’m still a user, but I’m not upgrading until their typical Xmas sale next Winter. I’m also sick of being an early adopter to any DAW upgrade. I was happy to submit bug reports and test run 10, but as usual I personally did not find it to be as stable as 9, so allowing Ableton to fine tune it first matches my needs perfectly.

kitekrazy
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by kitekrazy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:49 am

H20nly wrote:FL gives you the illusion of lifetime updates but it's to the point [now] where everything is an add-on. so yeah, the base application is a one time purchase... but it's like a pay-to-play "free" video game on your phone where your mileage is limited using the vanilla app. plus, the default sounds library is pretty horrible.

Audacity on the other hand, now there's a good pricing model. :P
I feel the same way about Live. What have they done upgrading the Suite? The major difference between FL's add ons and Live's is the FL ones are not proprietary. I may think twice about buying another developer's "premier package". Probably the only value I ever got out of those was from Cakewalk. The add ons were 3rd party. I got some AAS and XLN licenses that way.

Some of the sounds in Suite are not stellar. I'm done with Live packs. It would be nice if they have their own compression like in Kontakt or Reason.

Tempted just to get the 10 standard license when it goes on sale. That will probably be at least a year.

I may be wrong but I think it was you who posted a great argument for avoiding the Suite upgrade. I think it's good advice.

kitekrazy
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by kitekrazy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:57 am

Machinesworking wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:
logictoolbox wrote: I feel being penalised for already buying Suite 9 actually offensive. I wont be upgrading or supporting this program anymore as a matter of principle. Its a shame because I have actively supported Ableton since its birth in some pretty big arenas and ok I can afford the upgrade but I totally refuse to support this kind of thing. I bought suite because It seems good to buy into the whole package but i never expected to have to buy into it over and over again. I also no longer feel I can recommend this too my student age clients who don't want to find a sting like this around the corner
Why not get one of the DAWs that gives you lifetime major version updates instead? Which ones are those again? Bitwig? No… Logic? No… Pro Tools? No… Cubase? No… Digital Performer? No…

Help me out here…
Reaper is $69 for people making under $20k a year, around $200 for people who can write it off in their taxes, and roughly the same time in between upgrades, with many more incremental updates that ad new features. DP has always been $199 for any upgrade and 2-5 years is about how long an upgrade lasts. Then there’s FL Studio and Logic. There’s no reasonable argument that Live Suite is competitively priced to be made, and since Ableton are adding in things like LFO fx modulation plug ins to Suite only, there’s not much of a rational argument to be made that standard is in the same league as those DAWs. I’m not trying to knock Ableton, but facts are facts, Live is expensive, and has an expensive upgrade path with no competitive upgrade pricing.

I’m still a user, but I’m not upgrading until their typical Xmas sale next Winter. I’m also sick of being an early adopter to any DAW upgrade. I was happy to submit bug reports and test run 10, but as usual I personally did not find it to be as stable as 9, so allowing Ableton to fine tune it first matches my needs perfectly.
Reaper is great but it's like apples and oranges. I still use the session view quite a bit. Live Suite is the most over priced DAW out there. Cubase may charge for an upgrade instead of an update. As for Reaper I will have to pay for an upgrade when 6 is released. From Reaper 4 to current no other developer has matched the improvements made.

Machinesworking
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:27 am

Reaper is great but it's like apples and oranges. I still use the session view quite a bit. Live Suite is the most over priced DAW out there. Cubase may charge for an upgrade instead of an update. As for Reaper I will have to pay for an upgrade when 6 is released. From Reaper 4 to current no other developer has matched the improvements made.
Yeah it’s a hugely different program for sure. It has to be mentioned that ProTools although cheaper initially is as or more expensive whe it comes to upgrades with it’s $99 per year deal... Then again Pro Tools has always been the most expensive...

Stace30
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Stace30 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:52 pm

I'm not upgrading, I'm quite happy with Live 9 Suite. The price has stopped me wanting the upgrade anyway. I've found this thread intriguing.
Live 10 Suite, M4L, MPC TOUCH - MPC software v2.7, Reason 4, Komplete 11, i7 Laptop, 12g Ram, Win 10, Adam A7's & Genelec 8010's - Joined Forum in 2006.

david.barker
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by david.barker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:07 pm

Stace30 wrote:I'm not upgrading, I'm quite happy with Live 9 Suite. The price has stopped me wanting the upgrade anyway. I've found this thread intriguing.
I hear you Stace30
the only way I would upgrade is for a Live 10 licence only,I got the Live 9 suite,been told by Ableton that I can use the features of Live 9 Suite in Live 10 standard
kinda caught up in the moment,when I was starting to make music,as a hobby :oops:

There are some neat features I like in Ableton Live 10,though. :D

H20nly
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by H20nly » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:55 pm

kitekrazy wrote:I may be wrong but I think it was you who posted a great argument for avoiding the Suite upgrade. I think it's good advice.
yeah, it must have been someone else. i have had every version of Suite since Live 7... until Live 10. i have not upgraded... yet.

to expound a little on my earlier post, i was pretty happy with FL Studio for what it was... that was around version 5,6,7,8 though... but i am not a fan of their "modules" where you pay around a hundred U.S. dollars per "instrument" system. i mostly used it for creating drums in the step sequencer (after adding more sounds to the library). i used it as a rewire slave in the those days to bring drums into Cubase SX 3. after Live 7, when drum racks and groups were introduced, i had no real need to go back to FL Studio but would occasionally use it to whip up a drum track fast if i had a guitar or bass player over that i might be able to coerce into recording something on the spot.

i was just faster in FL studio at that point. i used FL to make a beat that would get them strumming and i usually was able to pull it off in 5 minutes or so, which would lead to their creative juices getting a jump start and my end goal of recording. if they came over with making tracks during the visit as an already established purpose, then i just wouldn't bother and would use Live instead to save myself the trouble of exporting stems or dealing with recording from the re-wire slave to audio later. in those scenarios i had more time to tinker, so i used in on the superior DAW :wink:

Stace30
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Stace30 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:58 am

david.barker wrote:There are some neat features I like in Ableton Live 10,though. :D
Me too, but if they'd kept the upgrade price at £179 then I would gladly upgrade, but not £221 I could buy Reason 10 for just a little bit more. Never mind, I'm sure the allure of Live 10 will get me eventually! :)
Live 10 Suite, M4L, MPC TOUCH - MPC software v2.7, Reason 4, Komplete 11, i7 Laptop, 12g Ram, Win 10, Adam A7's & Genelec 8010's - Joined Forum in 2006.

david.barker
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by david.barker » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:16 pm

Stace30 wrote:
david.barker wrote:There are some neat features I like in Ableton Live 10,though. :D
Me too, but if they'd kept the upgrade price at £179 then I would gladly upgrade, but not £221 I could buy Reason 10 for just a little bit more. Never mind, I'm sure the allure of Live 10 will get me eventually! :)

You must resist,h think of saving your cash and buy a good library or VsT,ha,ha :D

Stace30
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Stace30 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:43 am

david.barker wrote:You must resist,h think of saving your cash and buy a good library or VsT,ha,ha :D
I've always got my eye on a VSTi or FX and some bit of hardware! :) but who the hell am I kidding?! I know I will upgrade eventually as I've invested too much time and learning into Live. I've stopped using Cubase I haven't touched Reason for a long time! Ableton.... you've got me! :)

So, to recap (keeping in line with the thread), yes the upgrade to Live 10 Suite is pricey, yes I've moaned and groaned! Yes I will upgrade a bit further down the line.
Live 10 Suite, M4L, MPC TOUCH - MPC software v2.7, Reason 4, Komplete 11, i7 Laptop, 12g Ram, Win 10, Adam A7's & Genelec 8010's - Joined Forum in 2006.

jazzdaz
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by jazzdaz » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:46 am

AU$319 to upgrade from Live 9 Suite to Live 10 Suite.

That is 40% of what I paid for my first ever version - Live 9 suite.

Sorry but the changes do not cut if for me.

Soundtrackband
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Soundtrackband » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:24 pm

I'm really bent about this last update. First off, they dock the most loyal buyers, the suite buyers, an extra $100 dollars for what, exactly? A synth? That isn't any better than anyone else's synth, in fact, a good deal worse. That should've just been a loyalty bonus.

WOW, max is folded in! B F D! The type is more legible and groups can be nested. HOORAY. That's NOT a suite update. I still can't choose any color/text combo I want. The colors with white letters are totally limited. This was their response to my question what was in the Suite that wasn't in the regular upgrade - it was still innacurate but it's basically the wavetable synth! (We have added new instruments like Wavetable that is only available in our Suite edition. As well we have integrated Max for Live as apart of our Suite edition. A lot of effects have been redesigned and much more.)

I can buy into Fruity Loops for $199 and have ZERO update costs FOREVER. Fruity Loops piano roll and midi editing DESTROYS ableton's. The unreadability and discomfort I have experienced in the last year trying to edit midi data for Superior Drummer is off the charts and I'm looking elsewhere for a DAW that takes that side of things seriously. I shouldn't have to buy third party VSTs to get innovative sequencing control. Reason's upgrade is $129 and the Europa synth is as better than anything stock in Ableton, though I'm not exactly thrilled with staring at Reason's arcane setup again. You would think Ableton would've got the FL Studio memo BEFORE they engineered this update and made a real attempt to blow their competition out of the water. Instead, they kind of acquiesced, possibly because some team of execs wanted to hold back on spending too much of their vested cash. The update smells of a company circling the wagons, not leading the pack.

Ableton claims to be the loop player to end all loop players and yet it is not. Try cutting a multitrack recorded performance into loops some time, STAYING in multi-track and not busting it down to STEREO, which I DO NOT WANT TO DO. I wish you luck with that project inside of Ableton. Why is it I could come with 10 useability improvements that would make EDITING and SEQUENCING (ya know, LOOPS?) better in Ableton and make it the software every other company would envy, and yet the entire company failed to do so?

Sometimes, companies just get really blinded by their own shininess. I have had many interactions with support, and they refuse to bust me down to the regular upgrade price of $199, which is still too high for this software. Giving me 15% of $299 is literally a provocation to leave.

Tarekith
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Tarekith » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:58 pm

We're sorry you feel that way.
Tarekith
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Marias
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by Marias » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:12 pm

Yeah, for loyal Ableton supporters, $299 upgrade is ridiculous. How unfortunate, as I was all in for Ableton. It will now remain as a live 9 performance tool, and music will be made with Reason.
Bummer.

pottering
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Re: Live 10 upgrade path

Post by pottering » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:29 pm

Marias wrote:Yeah, for loyal Ableton supporters, $299 upgrade is ridiculous. How unfortunate, as I was all in for Ableton. It will now remain as a live 9 performance tool, and music will be made with Reason.
Bummer.
It is $250 on sale, that's when people upgrade.

If you are going to pick the worst case for the Live upgrade, then the worst case for Reason is $399.

Not exactly smart paying $399 to switch DAWs to save $299 from the upgrade from 9 to 10.

Even on the current sale Reason costs $299, same price as the upgrade.

Also, Live 10 update is not only Live 10.

It is also Max 8.

Max 8 is AMAZING.

Max UI is way faster now, zooming and connecting stuff is muuuuch faster and easier (not only UI speed but the new shift+drag function), hence more fun to use.

Also:

I have a Sonic Faction M4L instrument called Hypermorph.

The bloody thing ate CPU like nothing, 90% of the settings ended up using more than 100% CPU and causing crackles, it was basically completely unusable, made Serum look tame in comparison.

Well, with the latest beta, which has Max 8.0.2 bundled, the CPU usage for Hypermorph dropped almost 50%.

Now Hypermorph eats 50% to 65% in most settings, still high, but actually usable (RePro and Serum eat about the same CPU). Can even play more than one voice (luxury!).

And it is not even a listed "new feature" for Live 10, it is just one of HUNDREDS (maybe thousands) of improvements Live 10 has.

Sad that people keep kvetching about the bullet-point features like Echo and Wavetable, and end up not noticing the unnamed improvements that are the real gold in the Live 10 update...

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