BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

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Ludbek
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BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by Ludbek » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:54 pm

Hi...

I'm thinking about build a computer, but I'm undecided. My choices are between i7 8700k or i7 7820K. My actual setup is 4790k.

I use entirely for Digital Audio Workstation, my main software is Ableton Suite 9.5, some synths "essencially Fxpansion Strobe 2 & Waves Element 2" and many VST's like Soundtoys, Waves, Eventide, Fxpansion.

And memory 16GB is enough? Or 32GB.

I would like to know your opinions...

Thanks

casiblake
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by casiblake » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:49 pm

Reviews and rumblings suggest the X299 architecture suffers with regards to latency compared to the "classic" ring bus architecture of Intels mainstream CPUs. Considering how poorly Live makes use of 4 cores let alone more, I'm not sure a 7820X would get you much more performance over an 8700K.
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Alfonx
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by Alfonx » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:18 am

Ludbek wrote:Hi...

I'm thinking about build a computer, but I'm undecided. My choices are between i7 8700k or i7 7820K. My actual setup is 4790k.
Hi Ludbek,
i am interested in your decision. Did you bought an i7 8700k ?

I also look for a new PC. I'll buy 16GB of RAM because of the high prices and i think 16GB is really enough for me. I am using a lot of Audiofiles - but i won't use all of my 16GB ...

Greets
Alfonx
Loves Mashups!
Boom Bap/Oldschool, D-Trance/Hardtrance X-Plosion, House, 80s-90s Pop.
Mac & PC. Ableton Live 10 Suite & REAPER, Push 2, EMU X-Board 49, ESI Juli@

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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by login » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:26 pm

The diference is very very small, I would get the 8700k because the MOBO would be more cheaper, those 100 can go in to more SSD space or RAM.

mikb
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by mikb » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:12 pm

casiblake wrote:Considering how poorly Live makes use of 4 cores let alone more,
Proof? I keep asking for this, as have others, and no-one is posting test sets anyone can try nor verifiable test session data. How did you evaluate this exactly? What versions were involved and on which range of CPUs?

Which specific DAWs makes use of cores effectively then? Why do you believe all DAWs do the exact same work? Except Bitwig, which other DAws have session mode? Do you understand the performance requirement differences between session mode and arrangement mode and mixed modes, as Live can do?

Finally, do you understand the difference between real-time CPU performance and non real-time CPU performance?

This last part is certainly relevant when choosing a CPU as the OP asks about.
Basic gear info: Macbook Pro with macOS 10.12, Ableton Live Suite version 9 (64bit) with Ozone, Push and APC20 as controllers.

tintala
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by tintala » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:03 pm

Im using a 4790k , but live doesnt perform well with this as my old i5 i had 5 yrs ago! Either that or I did something wrong with my build, but my cpu is much sloppier than my old i5, my i74790k is slow. Why are you switching from the 4790? just curious ...

antic604
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by antic604 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:18 pm

Well, maybe start by actually buying Live? Or is there some other reason you're on 9.5?

TheWholeDamnZoo
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by TheWholeDamnZoo » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:37 pm

I'm also interested, if someone can elaborate about Live's use (or lack of use) of multiple cores. How do you determine that? Is Live unique in its inability to take advantage of multiple cores or is this the case in every DAW? Like the previous poster, I keep hearing about this but haven't found any explanation/elaboration.

mikb
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by mikb » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:34 pm

TheWholeDamnZoo wrote:Is Live unique in its inability to take advantage of multiple cores or is this the case in every DAW?
There is no "inability to take advantage of multiple cores" in any modern DAW as far as I can tell (I haven't studied them all). I suggest that what all DAWs have in common is specific real time programming problems that developers cannot currently fully escape in modern OSes. At least not in a satisfactory fashion.

While I can't describe in technical detail, the main problem is that if you have a buffer slice of events (MIDI and automation) or audio (instruments, audio clips and processing) or possibly the events to audio conversion (taking place inside an instrument), then each processing step that must result in 1 sample — 44100 samples per second, so that's easily a massive amount of real time calculations per second — and where each processing stage is stacked in the same time slice (1 sample in the audio stage) on top of all others, the task to spread track work out to other cores when work is already shared as 1 core per track and in other words a lot of calculations are taking place within the same time slice (with some adjustment for the current latency), then this task can be prohibitively expensive from a CPU resource standpoint.

Think about it, you already have 1 core per track and on top of that we are talking about adding additional piecemeal work spread out over cores and moving small amount of data between cores in already crowded CPU caches and lanes. You can only do that so many times before the overhead eats up any gains you might find spreading out like this to begin with.

That certain plug-ins, like some instruments, can spread out work over multiple cores is different because this is only one step in the processing. And the work is often like note by note or discrete internal steps. Even when this is technically possible in Live, sometimes this causes problems resulting in crackles and what not. Sometimes it will work fine as well, so it's possible Live can accommodate certain multi-core supporting plug-ins.

As far as I know, Bitwig and Live, are the only DAWs with some kind of Session mode. It has been suggested to me, that, "Bitwig has better multicore support than Live", but I've yet to see any actual proof of this. That is, no shared projects or CPU samples or even presentations of results. If others can't repeat the results that you think you got in DAW X regarding multi-core support, then they didn't happen.

What can be argued is that some DAWs may better hosts for multi-core supporting plug-ins. But this is something else.

About DAW multi-core work being spread out over cores beyond 1 core per track:
Bring the proof that can be repeated! Share the projects and the detailed results! Now!
Basic gear info: Macbook Pro with macOS 10.12, Ableton Live Suite version 9 (64bit) with Ozone, Push and APC20 as controllers.

Ludbek
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by Ludbek » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:14 pm

Hi guys,

I've been away for a few days, My choice is i7 8700k,O didn't have time to test on Ableton Suite 9.

I See many reviews about this processors and in tests on daw, for example in single core the 8700k it's one of the Best processors on the market.

See this review, Daw performance:

https://techreport.com/review/32642/int ... eviewed/14

The i7 4970k is good but i'm use many heavy vst's (soundtoys, waves, izotope, fxpansion, pluginalliance...) and Synths. the cpu with auxiliary channels more individual channels fx's is not a joke! I design everything, even a Drums.

We will See..

Alfonx
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Re: BEST CHOICE - i7 8700K or i7 7820X ?

Post by Alfonx » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:47 pm

Ludbek wrote: My choice is i7 8700k
Mine too. Still waiting for the delivery. I think we won’t regret it. :mrgreen:
Loves Mashups!
Boom Bap/Oldschool, D-Trance/Hardtrance X-Plosion, House, 80s-90s Pop.
Mac & PC. Ableton Live 10 Suite & REAPER, Push 2, EMU X-Board 49, ESI Juli@

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