So, these new MacBook (Air / Pro) machines...

Discuss anything related to audio or music production.
Tuur
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So, these new MacBook (Air / Pro) machines...

Post by Tuur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:46 pm

They should be pretty decent right? I mean if you start with a quad-core i5.

I'm on an early 2015 2,7 GHz dual-core i5 MBP right now, and especially with an external screen it's not that great.

CPU, GPU and RAM speeds should be a nice upgrade. The only thing that got me thinking are those new USB ports, as I've seen some issues with external (audio) hardware, but apparently these can be solved with (expensive) thunderbolt hubs.

Other than that, is the upgrade to an i7 (80€ for more L3 cache + .1 GHz) worth it? I'm not sure about cache advantages when it comes to audio software. 🤔

Thoughts are welcome!

Edit: performance comparison with 2017 MBP.
Last edited by Tuur on Mon May 04, 2020 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

woodwolf
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by woodwolf » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:53 pm

This is my opinion only. And the old saying about opinion stands true as always.

This would be a much better choice for your aproxmite budget, and have a much longer usable life.

https://www.hidevolution.com/custom-bui ... 60-ti.html

For audio production, if it was a notebook, and it had to be apple, A mac book pro would be the way to go.

jlgrimes
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by jlgrimes » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:13 pm

woodwolf wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:53 pm
This is my opinion only. And the old saying about opinion stands true as always.

This would be a much better choice for your aproxmite budget, and have a much longer usable life.

https://www.hidevolution.com/custom-bui ... 60-ti.html

Fir audio production, if it was a notebook, and it had to be apple, A mac book pro would be the way to go.
I second the msi laptops.

I have a gsi 63vr. It ran circles around a Macbook Air I bought about four years earlier at a similar price.

If you are wanting to play low latency modern softsynths such as Serum, Diva and what not, I would go with the Mac book pro if you want to stick with Apple.

TLW
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by TLW » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:16 pm

The Airs cpu speeds are rather low, which might be a problem. Waiting for the cpu to complete a task is OK in e.g. Photoshop so long as you don’t mind waiting, but DAWs are unforgiving - either those few milliseconds of audio buffer are kept topped up or dropouts happen or the audio engine stops altogether.

If I needed a new DAW laptop I’d get a MacBook Pro, maybe used or one of Apple’s reconditioned ones that turn up on their website sometimes rather than an Air. An Air might cope with straightforward MIDI sequencing to hardware instruments and basic audio recording using very few low-cpu plugins and a low track count but I’d even have doubts about it managing that reliably. Airs are very good “everyday general purpose” laptops but DAWs are a very unusual, demanding and specialised use for a computer. On the plus side they do have Core Audio/MIDI, and the OS uses fewer resources than Windows (my wife’s 11’ i5 Air outperforms her new work-issue Lenovo that has a higher spec cpu and more RAM) but the Air’s cpu speeds do give me cause for concern.
Live 10 Suite, 2020 27" iMac, 3.6 GHz i9, MacOS Catalina, RME UFX, assorted synths, guitars and stuff.

Tuur
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tuur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:51 pm

Yes, it’s going to be a Mac. And never in my life did I own a Windows machine that lasted as long as my MacBook. Not even counting the resale value.

No, I’m not interested in the current Pro’s. I also think the specs of the new Air are not going to be an issue, considering my old Pro still runs L10 fine and the new Air is way faster.

So, my question remains: any useful advice on the i7 and cache is appreciated...

Tuur
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tuur » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:01 pm

TLW wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:16 pm
The Airs cpu speeds are rather low, which might be a problem.

... Airs are very good “everyday general purpose” laptops but DAWs are a very unusual, demanding and specialised use for a computer. On the plus side they do have Core Audio/MIDI, and the OS uses fewer resources than Windows (my wife’s 11’ i5 Air outperforms her new work-issue Lenovo that has a higher spec cpu and more RAM) but the Air’s cpu speeds do give me cause for concern.
This is what I mean, the general purpose machine of today is faster the the pro machine I bought way back. So I’m not worried about that... :)

Tarekith
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tarekith » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:08 pm

I'd agree with that. It's hard to look at something like the new Air and compare it to the more expensive laptops out there, it looks like it falls behind. But when I think about how much I used to be able to throw at a 1.4gHz core 2 duo with a 4200RPM drive in my first laptop, it's hard not to realize even the low end machines today are soooo much more capable than those higher end ones from before. Plug ins have also gottten more CPU hungry, but if you're careful you can push even the cheapest Air pretty damn far before you run into limitations.
Last edited by Tarekith on Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

woodwolf
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by woodwolf » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:41 pm

Ok, so i7 is worth the upgrade and cache does make a difference. Compare benchmarks between the 2 processors and decide for yourself, but get the best mac in your budget. Intel also has other manufacturing variables from i5 to i7 that make a difference. Also try to get the latest gen i7 which should be in the mac by default but worth the research anyway. I5 is a low mid grade processor. Some will disagree but the numbers speak for themselves in benchmarks. Bigger well implemented cache is almost always going to give your higher single thread performance as well. Multi is always dependent on the application.

jlgrimes
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by jlgrimes » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:56 am

Tuur wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:01 pm
TLW wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:16 pm
The Airs cpu speeds are rather low, which might be a problem.

... Airs are very good “everyday general purpose” laptops but DAWs are a very unusual, demanding and specialised use for a computer. On the plus side they do have Core Audio/MIDI, and the OS uses fewer resources than Windows (my wife’s 11’ i5 Air outperforms her new work-issue Lenovo that has a higher spec cpu and more RAM) but the Air’s cpu speeds do give me cause for concern.
This is what I mean, the general purpose machine of today is faster the the pro machine I bought way back. So I’m not worried about that... :)
I will add that I bought a 2014 MBA for about $1700 after having a great experience with the 2012 Mac Mini. It was one of the worst laptop experiences ever. And that was after buying cheaper Windows laptops for like $500-$700.

Now it was a beautiful laptop. For general CPU tasks it was great. But other than recording audio and maybe basic mixing, it fell on its knees pretty quick. I think the biggest issue was that it was a dual core (which is not enough for stuff like Diva). That said by making use of track Freeze, it worked fine. I just expected more. The 2012 Mac mini was a great little computer that could handle most tasks with minimal issues. I was kind of expecting it to perform similar to that (maybe a bit worse). It was much worse like going 10 years back in time. Maybe Apple did improve there though but I dont know. I just turned away from wanting to ever use a MBA for audio (unless I am just mobile recording, which it would probably work fine, or using a very old version of Reason or something).

TLW
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by TLW » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:47 am

My wide doesn’t use her 11’ MBA for heavy duty stuff like audio processing and production, it’s her “everyday computer” for work, web, email, office stuff etc. Her professional work involves using browser-interface virtualisation software over the internet and the lowly Air absolutely clobbers her word-issued brand new Lenovo over the same home LAN and broadband connection. Which I will admit I found surprising, but having run Macs, Linux machines and almost every version of Windows since Windows 3 I tend to regard modern Windows, say after NT4, as resource hogs and requiring more processing power than the *nix based systems for similar performance. Possibly because Windows has to have provision for an astronomical number of possible hardware combinations, some of which is probably not of the highest component or construction quality while not requiring any depth of understanding of computers or OSs from the people who will be installing and using it.

I also strongly suspect registry bloat to be an issue - keeping a Windows computer running as fast as when first installed seems to often mean re-installing it from scratch every so often. *nix machines, including Apple’s FreeBSD based OS, seem to maintain performance for years and over multiple major OS upgrades and updates in a way PCs often don’t. I’ve been using the same MBP for five years and have never needed to revert it to “factory” condition and reinstall it as it’s moved through the annual OS updates - it runs Mojave as well as it did the OS it came with. Though I probably will do a full reset and new installation of everything before moving to Catalina to get rid of any 32 bit stuff still lurking anywhere on it, install only software versions that will run under Catalina and generally clean it out - the log files and redundant preferences from uninstalled software have got a bit out of hand.

Maybe I’m weird, but the only version of Windows I really liked was Vista. After Service Pack 1 it was a very good OS, and it certainly improved DAW performance (I was mostly using Sonar at the time) and reduced the complexity involved in building and configuring a Windows DAW - and I liked the GUI. The Win 8 onwards dumbed down default GUI is something I really dislike. And don’t get me started on Cortana. That monstrosity seems harder to exterminate than a cockroach infestation. Though on the plus side there are now PC suppliers who will sell you a PC without stuffing it full of bloatware.

Maybe several years spent spending several hours a day at work with Windows for Workgroups long after it was outdated while my much faster home machines started with AmigaOS with its smooth multi-tasking and eye-friendly interface and moved eventually to NT4 and Linux while my then employer doggedly stuck to Win3.11 until 1999 has prejudiced me somewhat. :-/
Live 10 Suite, 2020 27" iMac, 3.6 GHz i9, MacOS Catalina, RME UFX, assorted synths, guitars and stuff.

Tuur
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tuur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:55 am

woodwolf wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:41 pm
Ok, so i7 is worth the upgrade and cache does make a difference. Compare benchmarks between the 2 processors and decide for yourself...
Thanks. I know about benchmarks, it's just that I specifically wanted to know more details in relation to audio software.
woodwolf wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:41 pm
Also try to get the latest gen i7 which should be in the mac by default but worth the research anyway. I5 is a low mid grade processor.
Yup, it's gen 10. And I suspect the i5 will come pretty close in dry benchmarks.

Tuur
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tuur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:06 am

jlgrimes wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:56 am
I will add that I bought a 2014 MBA for about $1700 after having a great experience with the 2012 Mac Mini. It was one of the worst laptop experiences ever. And that was after buying cheaper Windows laptops for like $500-$700.
I understand. Apple made a bunch of 'not so great' machines too. Last years Mac Air had a pretty 'meh' CPU for example. You have to pick the right moment IMO.

This is why I started the thread. The new model has fresh CPU's with fantastic GPU performance (for non-gamers) which easily outclass my current MBP. So I figured the stars are aligning. I was just wondering about the i7 advantage and possible (thunderbolt / usb) hardware issues.

A 14'' MacBook Pro is coming up, and rumor has it it will be pretty good too, but money / performance wise I think this MBA is the best since years.

Tuur
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tuur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:14 am

TLW wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:47 am
Which I will admit I found surprising, but having run Macs, Linux machines and almost every version of Windows since Windows 3 I tend to regard modern Windows, say after NT4, as resource hogs and requiring more processing power than the *nix based systems for similar performance.
Agreed. I don't want to turn this into a platform war, and Apple isn't perfect, but after years and years I got tired of Windows.

Tuur
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by Tuur » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:41 am

For those interested: so far it looks like the machine is suffering a lot from thermal throttling (i3 and i5 benchmarks are relatively close, just like their prices for that matter).

I wonder what this will mean for the i7 config...

woodwolf
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Re: So, these new MacBook Air machines...

Post by woodwolf » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:19 pm

In my experience, and since I build computers, replacement of the stock tim, thermal interface material, can improve thermal throttling considerably.

Adding a cooling fan pad under the laptop will help with that as well.

Too bad water cooling is not a standard on laptops these days. Little buggers get hot.

Core i7 laptop cups have apx same wattage etc, so expect thermals to be similar with the same cooling platform. The only way to improve thermals is to improve the cooling, and tim is a very nice start if you feel like pulling the laptop apart. Yep, will possibly void your warranty. Also the less a cpu has to work will improve thermals as well. A core i7 will not have to work as hard to do the same thing as core i5. Yet another reason why i7 will have an advantage.

Cache will improve cpu performance across the board. It does not apply only to audio production. The job of cache simplistically is to allow the cpu to perform more efficiently. That is coded into intels cpu drivers and not the daw or vst. A daw or vst will take advantage of better coded and physical cache.

There are plenty of articles on intels site that explain specifically how intel uses, integrates, and improves CPU performance with cache even specifically for the cpu models in question.

Perhaps apple offers a tim material upgrade. I dont know but worth checking into.

I aggre pc is a pita. But it would really be a good idea to think hard before spending your money. I know you have done a ton of research. That being said macbook pro if it has to be a mac is hands down the best choice. With the laptop I recommended, you have a ton more power under the hood available if/when you need it for a similar investment.

https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac/ ... n-3446650/

I hope you get the best solution for your needs, and hope this helps.

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