Apple silicon

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akaspeedy
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Apple silicon

Post by akaspeedy » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:39 pm

So with the new Apple silicon on the horizon, and iOS ipad os and Mac OS using the same code, will we finally be able to have ableton on the iPad???


Aka Speedy

Tone Deft
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:36 pm

as for the silicon change away from Intel, they had that planned years ago when they stole a large processor development team from disgruntled Intel employees and built up an ARM architecture for Apple. I had this all in a thread but it was locked. there will be no changes that users will notice, just one universal binary for all Apple computer users.

are there any good music apps for those devices? do you think you'd get anything like the computer version of Live on an iDevice? it would be a dumbed down version of Live that make Ableton look like a Toy Maker. if there is an app you already like then go use that. has any other DAW maker made a good iDevice version of their app?
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Tarekith
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tarekith » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:51 pm

Cubasis is pretty decent for the iPad. While I still prefer Auria, I think Steinberg did a pretty nice job of getting the core ideals of Cubase on the iPad.

Tone Deft
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:12 pm

the plot thickens...
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TLW
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by TLW » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:02 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:36 pm
are there any good music apps for those devices? do you think you'd get anything like the computer version of Live on an iDevice? it would be a dumbed down version of Live that make Ableton look like a Toy Maker. if there is an app you already like then go use that. has any other DAW maker made a good iDevice version of their app?
Cubasis, as already mentioned, isn’t bad but I don’t like using an iPad as a DAW. Garageband is as capable on an iPad as it is on a Mac - which is to say it’s a useful introduction to DAWs for beginners (and free).

The music apps I do use are MIDI sequencers, some of which are very powerful. Some, like Thesys, are essentially identical to the AU/VST plugin versions (and much cheaper). Quantum is also excellent. Still not quite as flexible or performance-orientated as some hardware sequencers, but touch control makes them much more like using a hardware sequencer than anything limited to being controlled by a single mouse/trackpad pointer.

There are also some good software synthesisers. Korg’s iMS-20 is as good as their plugin version, neither are quite like an actual MS-20 in sound or behaviour but I find iMS-20 useful for coming up with patch ideas when not sitting in front of my MS-20 and it makes a useful patch librarian of sorts - I duplicate the patch from the hardware synth in the iPad version and save it. Better than taking a photo of the synth because it means I can also get a pretty good idea of how the patch sounds on the real thing.

Waldorf’s iOS Nave is very good, no ability to load your own waves but other than that it’s essentially the same as the VST at less than a tenth of the price.

Phosphor 3 by AudioDamage and Primal Audio’s FM4 deserve a mention and there are some very interesting granular synths about. Arturia have several good iOS versions of their software synths, Moog offer a decent Model 15 and Minimoog, Ripplemaker is a decent digital “West coast” style synth that while it doesn’t match my 0-Coast for rawness and “life” is still quite useable. An increasing number of plugin effects are also being marketed for iPad by some of the biggest names in the field.

And there are many more besides those. They are just ones I’ve used and feel able to have an opinion about.

Latency is very acceptable, the audio can be taken out of the headphones socket or, into a Mac, using a lightning cable and configuring the iPad as an audio interface. Wired (USB) and wireless MIDI networking is built into both Macs and iPads. I can foresee a future where laptops and iPads merge into a single product range, but I think the initial Apple silicon computers are most likely to be in the lower powered laptop zone currently occupied by the Macbook and Macbook Air. An Apple chip capable of taking on a fast i7 or i9 may well happen, but I doubt it would be feasible in tablet form simply due to the physical size and power and cooling requirement.

It’s a question of using tools for what they are good at. iPads are very good at many things, and the more modern ones are pretty powerful things. They’re already quite common in the gigging DJ sector, rather than hauling a laptop or two around and I’ve seen them being used as instruments on professional stages.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:38 pm

given your overview of what's possible in one app it's valuable insight... what kind of feature set could Ableton be designing before. TBH I'm usually wrong with these kinds of big picture predictions.
I don’t like using an iPad as a DAW...

The music apps I do use are MIDI sequencers...
geez yeah, sequencers and the like could be handled by an app, it's audio where I see roadblocks.

maybe a good metric is to start with a look at Live 1 and see what the bare bones Ableton was like. maybe take out all the audio features but the most rudimentary playback. I'm not suggesting using the Live 1 CODE etc by any means, just what Ableton thought was a 'minimum viable product' that would interest people enough that they could form a business around it.
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TLW
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by TLW » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:08 pm

Cubasis and Garage Band already go way beyond “bare bones” audio playback - including supporting plugins. As does inter-app audio and the tools for making that happen.

I’m curious. Do you have an iPad, and if so which model?
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Tone Deft
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:09 pm

TLW wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:08 pm
I’m curious. Do you have an iPad, and if so which model?
none. never owned one or borrowed one for a short time. J.A.F.O. (just another fucking observer). the OP does say iPad devices so my experiences with phones has no bearing.

TBH I haven't seen a friend/coworker using one for quite a while to get the gist of what they can do. I've been to performances and seen many youtubes. there was the Lemur-like experience talked about when they first came out. I am that old?? :oops:

I have an old Fire Kindle (gift) that never really grabbed my attention.

I can feel you slowly, patiently prying my eyes open to get an iPad. plug-in support? inter-audio support I knew was coming, I guess it came... I might sell this laptop to get an iPad and put money towards a desktop. I chose the wrong space to put my money into.
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steko
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by steko » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:48 pm

Rahad Jackson wrote:My Awesome Mix Tape #6

TLW
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by TLW » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:52 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:09 pm
I can feel you slowly, patiently prying my eyes open to get an iPad
Not at all, just commenting that they are far more capable and useful than they are often given credit for being. That there's shedloads of trivial games and coders making pointless or useless apps are for them isn't an indication of what they can do any more than Windows solitaire is the standard for judging what a PC is capable of.
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Machinesworking
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Machinesworking » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:33 am

I'm definitely more intrigued by Apple moving to their own designed chips than I was by the Intel move. Recently Apple has had some issues with compatibility, thermal throttling since there was no way Apple was going to redesign the Macbook Pro for 6 and 8 core chips. So my big question only answered with time will be if this move means 8 core plus laptops with no heat and noise problems? Maybe no fan? Then there's Apples lack of touch screens on their "pro" lines and laptops in general. Are we going to see an equivalent to the current 8 core iPad Pro with Logic native on it and Live etc?

I think we're going to see a typical Apple move here. Microsoft have a Surface Pro running an Arm chip, not too powerful, they didn't design it, and they didn't strong arm developers along for the ride, so it sits as a niche toy. Apple are going to come along in the next two years and meld their iOS and OS X together (iOS was always a cut down version of OS X anyway), which IMO was starting to happen in Catalina's breaking out 32 bit support, and heavy security features that drove some developers nuts, take credit for innovating the touch experience etc. and people will get mad about it. In this case IMO this looks like a winner though, the long game of keeping the OS's separate is over, and it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

yur2die4
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by yur2die4 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:04 pm

As this merging of Apple OSes continues, I don’t see why Live wouldn’t run on an iPad 3-4 years from now.

The bigger issue will be plug in support, on the ‘iPad Pro+’ or whatever they’ll call it. Sure, brand new plugins would take the latest Mac OS into consideration when rolling out. But classic plugins might be slow to tag along.

A lot of companies are kind of already getting there. Which brings up a debate people have been having about Apple recently allowing iOS apps to be used on MacOS, there are a lot of audio units available in the App Store that cost 1/5 of what they cost as plugins from the developer. I recently saw an advert for an Audio Damage collection on sale for $150. I already have all those apps for under $30.

So, will they have to bump up the price of their iOS apps?? You’ll begin seeing premium prices for audio unit apps in the App Store, that you intend to use on your phone. (Pretty eager to get iPhone 12 :P)

Tone Deft
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tone Deft » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:16 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:04 pm
As this merging of Apple OSes continues, I don’t see why Live wouldn’t run on an iPad 3-4 years from now.
if EVERYTHING Ableton has to offer could be done on an iPad there's no f-ing way they'd keep my interest as a user. I want desktop quality audio software developed on workstations. only because I can't afford a workstation.

it's affirmed that iPads fit in a convenient great price point and form factor. Moore's Law, yeah, (even that is changing). these chip sets you're so in awe of aren't even on the latest fabs, it's 16nm, these are old fab houses that were already set to close down YEARS before the next one was ever planned. read up. this isn't high tech, it's just consumer grade stuff, trickle down, simplified. the high end stuff, that will trickle down to desktops is where the sexy sexy happens.

whatever, anyway...

it saddens me that this forum has so much chatter about developing toys. I'm just pissing in the wind, you just don't love audio.

I'm just making the same post over and over again. I give up.
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yur2die4
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by yur2die4 » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:25 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:16 pm
these chip sets you're so in awe of aren't even on the latest fabs, it's 16nm, these are old fab houses that were already set to close down YEARS before the next one was ever planned. read up. this isn't high tech, it's just consumer grade stuff

The A13 is 7nm, the A14 will be 5nm coming in October at 3ghz.

If an iPad is a ‘toy’. Then what isn’t a toy? Surely, the computers that made OK Computer are complete garbage by comparison. Same with the MPCs. Audio limitations?? It’s a computer. What are the limitations of a computer?

You make all these statements about iPads, yet you claim you haven’t really had any experience with them. I’m curious what your response would be to all this. But I feel that you might gain more peace of mind by not feeling obliged to repeat yourself.

Tone Deft
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Re: Apple silicon

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:36 pm

yur2die4 wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:25 am
you might gain more peace of mind by not feeling obliged to repeat yourself.
yes, I've made my point, I should shut up and let the ideas fly. please do not get sidetracked by me, there's no point in someone coming along and shutting down an idea thread, that's bullshit, it's wrong and leads to nothing useful.

I do dig your posts man. I have researched some of the things you posted, good stuff but my input isn't necessary.

please keep fleshing out this idea. this is how innovation starts, riffing on an idea openly without criticism or fear of rejection.

so now I'll step out. if you want to take me to task and call me out, I have a thick skin, that's cool with me.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

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