The official day the fun died!

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
stringtapper
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm

Re: The official day the fun died!

Post by stringtapper » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:07 am

Tarekith wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:37 pm
Don't worry, we have already flagged them for review and possible deletion. :lol:

8)
:lol:
Unsound Designer

pottering
Posts: 1227
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:41 am

Re: The official day the fun died!

Post by pottering » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:08 pm

miyaru wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:39 am
I understand your feelings and sentiment about it........

And it is true a lot stays un-answered. I find myself shifting towards Reason 11 suite more and more every day, while it started to be the Reason Rack into Live 10 suite.
Reason 11 is made by a company that used to be called Propellerheads, that NUKED THEIR WHOLE USER FORUM a few years ago.

It was not "locked", like the thread YOU CAN STILL READ that is this thread's topic, the whole forum vanished and can't be read anymore.

Reason was not even the only product, there were posts about ReCycle and REX loops, Rewire (which they also killed), Rebirth, etc.. all nuked, probably stuff from 3rd party developers of their RE rack extension stuff too.

I guess you thought they never had a forum? They did and Reason is older than Live.

Reasontalk is an independent forum.

(And Reasontalk exists exactly because Properllerheads forum was not known as a bastion of free speech even before it was deleted.)

[jur]
Site Admin
Posts: 2568
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Location: Ableton

Re: The official day the fun died!

Post by [jur] » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:52 pm

jestermgee wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:39 am
I for one enjoy some of the more unfiltered and direct engagements, a little bit of interest. Problem is snowflakes (can I even say that without being reprimanded) these days on the internet haven't gone through the ringers of learning that what is said and posted on the internet can easily be ignored and passed over if you do not like it... This is no fault of Ableton or the mods but it seems now we have to pander to the lowest denominator so if 10,000 people seem to enjoy something but one silk sheet is offended by it then guess who gets the cheese.

I think of forums like a pub, you can have your banter, argue and disagree but when someone begins throwing a punch then that's where the bartender steps in to calm things down. Problem is it seems the bartenders step in as soon as a voice is raised here so we don't get to have the conversation and try not a few things out "just in case" someone gets over hyped...

The locked thread, not a case of when something was last posted. It is a case of seeing it revived even after 2 years brings a glimmer of hope that one of the older folks is back and maybe we will see some interesting conversations. It's also something that shows the casual side of things round here that new users can also contribute towards and maybe, one of them will stick round and help others for 15 years like I did.

I am sure moderation is needed but like most other things nowadays that are all PC and "responsible" it sucks the actual fun and engagement out of things if it is too heavily done. Half the reason I use to click on daily and why it's still part of my morning routine while i check emails and other forums is because I was always interested in what discussions would be on today, who would be making some noise and who would be sinking their own foot up their ass and maybe also learn a new tip on compression or mixing low frequencies along the way. With all that banter gone, only so many times you can read "Is Ableton compatible with big Sure Yet???!!!? When FFS????"
[jur] wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:02 pm
Anyway, we could discuss this for hours, and all that's been said in this thread is totally relevant.
If any of you have ideas on how to make things better, please let us know (and that'd be way more cool than seeing you leave Jestermgee, btw). The only rule is to keep the place respectfull (which unfortunately is quite a tricky one!).
I've suggested a number of things over the years but it is pretty clear the forum is probably never going to be properly updated or improved in any exciting way. To reiterate some of the suggestions and thoughts I have had over the years:

- Images need to be able to be posted on the forum easily. Posting a link from a separate host is archaic and while I have no issue with how it is done, most new users have no clue about this and it is detrimental to fast assistance when you have to save an image, upload it somewhere and then link it compared to most forums where you can print-screen then just paste like in a document. It also has the second benefit of the images still being there in 6 months when someone googles the question. I do not buy the excuse of copyright and inappropriate etc.. Everywhere allows images to be posted and copyright claims are a simple takedown request if warranted so you take it down. Simple.

- The User Help Exchange should be reopened or a new sub forum created!. It is a User to User exchange and the only reason it was closed initially is because "Answers" was someones bright idea as a better solution which never worked because it did not easily allow for discussions (or images) nor did it allow the experienced users to easily browse and engage in topics. Having it locked and also the "buy/sell" thread makes the place look tacky and broken IMO. If buy and sell isn't ever going to be a thing, just remove it. No need to be able to search that forum

- Better moderation of where things are posted. This place is a mess. People are just posting questions in every orifice of the place. Tips and Tricks should be for actual informative tips and/or tricks to assist people... Things should always be a statement of something, not a question. Anything that is a "how do I do this" should be moved to the suitable forum. Again, allowing all these posts all over the place completely negates the reason we have sub forums and makes it appear neglected. Issue we have currently is there is no actual general forum for people to ask questions except "music and production" which should just be the new UHE area

- More modern look. The reskin done a while ago that was mainly due to making the forum mobile compatible did nothing to improve the appeal of the forum. A new engine is needed or some major updates to allow things like giving users likes, being able to see what license type a user has, having system specs as a users account easily viewable etc. Maybe even the option for an avatar because for a DAW that offers such colourful interface and hardware options, the forum is drab and uninviting.

- Housekeeping of stickies and announcements. Currently on the Music/Production forum there are 12 stickies and announcements. Issue with too many is people (like me) just gloss over the whole section automatically because it is "too busy". some of the threads can be deleted such as the maintenance announcement.... Add it back when there is maintenance so you notice a new announcement. Some can be consolidated into a single thread that covers "Current Live / Beta version" and simply detail both the current release and beta version. The "Post your most obscure Ableton Live knowledge" could be moved to the "Tips & Tricks" section.... Lots of things like this make it appear the place is neglected and impressions matter.

- If it is too hard, Just set the current forum as a searchable archive and create a whole new forum to coincide with a new Live release. One of the issues I know is finding a new solution that can still utilise the past content but that is quite a task. It would be possible, it's all just SQL data and a guru could get things setup but it seems the desire to invest isn't there although I cannot understand why as it has been said, there are over 150,000 registered users (tho how many are active I would bet is less than 3% of that number). Forums can be a great way of increasing sales through engagement so seems bizarre that this isn't any kind of priority.

- Locked threads need a reason doesn't have to call out a user or anything, just a reason as to why it was locked so others know what caused it because often the offending post that got the thread locked was deleted. Most other forums I visit the offending post and user are left in place unless it is absolutely unacceptable and almost always the mod states the reason for the lock. this helps to educate others and show where the line is that was crossed and also who the troublemaker was.

Feeling has been for years the forum isn't a place for the modern world and not a place Ableton like to really manage. While the efforts of individual mods are appreciated and this was never a dig at anyone individually, you guys do a great and fair job, it's the way it has been managed and neglected as a whole while most other companies have pressed forward in this area, it just doesn't appear as anything important to spend time on and so that is now reflected in the shell of users we now have who don't feel it is a place they should spend time on either.

I'll always be around but I have cut the amount I post way back and only spend a few minutes here each day (this is the longest I have bothered for months). It's just the constant nails in the coffin that really make it less interesting for me to be bothered with my own time when I get nothing out of here anymore and i've even been warned a few times of late for offering blunt answers on things which I feel, need a blunt answer. RTFM is a valid reply when asking something that is covered clearly in the manual.

Also if someone wants to say "why the fuck is this fucking shit so fucked" I should be able to say "Fucked if I fucking know mate" without being called out as inappropriate and having the post deleted (while the original post is left as is). The guidelines say nothing about using swear words, only "If you wouldn’t say it in person around people you don't necessarily know, then don’t post it to the Ableton forum.". I'm Australian and if a dropkick was banging on like that even if I did not know him, I would answer back in the same way because it either A) demonstrates how much of an idiot he sounds or B) gets a laugh and you have a beer and become mates.... Neither happens if Joey keep calm steps in and suggests we have a sideline powwow and discuss our feelings in a more mature manner. We are adults and can swear if we want and this isn't something I would usually do if the context of the conversation did not govern that, like most I adapt to the situation appropriately... some haven't a clue on this.

I was young once and received these kinds of blunt replies myself and it forced me to spend a bit of time and actually detail what I had done so I didn't get that next time. Tough love is still love and even a blunt answer is sometimes better than no answer at all.
Thanks for this thoughtful answer!
I'm just passing by to say that I'm not gonna comment today but will sure take time to do so in the coming days.
Ableton Forum Moderator

dredd i knight
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:33 pm

Re: The official day the fun died!

Post by dredd i knight » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:32 am

I used to enjoy this forum. Then I remember some discussion of whether you can trust people that dress in hip hop attire after some dudess in hip hop attire (black) hassled a guy. It was qwhite the thread.

I got mauled arguing that was coded racial bs.

Then the lounge opened. I saw that many people I kind of liked were far less open minded than I'd thought, rather far more hateful and hiding it as "jokes."

I remember memes of Mel Gibson using the n word and countless other things that I'd probably get called a snowflake for calling out, and realised this place was a gang of boys who I'd have got into fights with at school for throwing bananas at me or something. Not a place for me then sadly.

That was about 10 years ago maybe more. I left for more colourful, less judgemental pastures. I wonder about taking offence for stuff getting closed down when there was some real offensive stuff going on that no-one seemed to have a problem with; which is deserving of a hearing and which is taking offence for the sake of it.

When a forum has the power to have a negatively impact on members quality of life or mental health, then yeah moderation is called for. You can get that stuff on Reddit, 4chan, and 8chan if you really need it in your life.

I did miss chatting about Ableton here though.

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