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 Post subject: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:18 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Just curious about the new betas, and the location it is installed to by default.

Previously Live would suggest C:\Program Files (x86)\Ableton\Live 8.2.8

With the new 8.3 beta it defaults to C:\ProgramData\Ableton\Live 8\

I don't think I have any other applications that install to C:\ProgramData - they all are either in C:\Program Files or C:\Program Files (x86)..

Wondering if there's any reason for this change?

I can't see any, but it just seemed odd after all these years to suddenly install to a location where no other apps are installed.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:55 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:31 am
Posts: 429
€: It´s ProgramData on my System too (Win7)

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Last edited by Evengy on Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Odd.. I've been running every revision of 8.2.x on this new laptop as well as some 8.2.x betas and all have suggested the typical install location until the 8.3b1..

I realize it's a system folder, which is why I'm asking what changed (for me?) all of the sudden. Seemed really odd.

edit: also, none of my Environment Variables have anything pointing to ProgramData


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:30 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 12993
Location: The Wild West
clearly they are about to switch to 64 bit and that folder will no longer suffice. clearly.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:30 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Fleet, UK
cotdagoo wrote:
With the new 8.3 beta it defaults to C:\ProgramData\Ableton\Live 8\


I had exactly the same issue and so I did not bother installing


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Guess I should have probably asked in 'Music and Audio Production' instead of the beta forum. Others seem to be getting quicker replies about the 8.3 betas there..

Last actual post (other than new beta posts) by an Abe in this section was Nov 30 2011.. is anyone even monitoring this area anymore?


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:21 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Posts: 5877
Location: Ableton Headquarters
cotdagoo wrote:
Guess I should have probably asked in 'Music and Audio Production' instead of the beta forum. Others seem to be getting quicker replies about the 8.3 betas there..

Last actual post (other than new beta posts) by an Abe in this section was Nov 30 2011.. is anyone even monitoring this area anymore?

Hi,

Sorry for the silence, yes, we are reading this section though are not so active.

The reason for the change is that the auto-update, to work, need to find the program in a location that is not program files, where special permissions are necessary to update files and folders.

Google Chrome uses App Data, we chose Program Data because then the installation is for "all users", on the computer.

Regards,
Amaury

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:47 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Amaury wrote:
Sorry for the silence, yes, we are reading this section though are not so active.

The reason for the change is that the auto-update, to work, need to find the program in a location that is not program files, where special permissions are necessary to update files and folders.

Google Chrome uses App Data, we chose Program Data because then the installation is for "all users", on the computer.

Regards,
Amaury


So basically if I install to my regular location (C:\Program Files (x86)\Ableton\Live 8 ) - I won't be able to use the auto-update feature?

As far as I'm aware, most if not all my other apps store their config, etc.. in AppData (Chrome being one exception) but don't actually run or are installed to those folders (the .exe resides somewhere in the Program Files directory).

Is there a specific reason the install must be located there, and not just store data required for the updates in ProgramData (or AppData)?
For example: Mozilla keeps its Firefox.exe in Program Files, and has auto-update ability without being installed to the ProgramData or AppData folders..

Would it not make more sense to keep the installation folder where it has been for years, and create a temp folder in ProgramData to run any auto-updating routines rather than move everything? I mean, if that's possible?


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:48 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Ableton Headquarters
Hi everybody,

first of all I need to say that I am not the expert here, but Alex, who is the expert is on vacation this week. So please excuse if I might not be accurate.

We changed the installation location for Live 8.3 because we now have auto updates. When deploying updates automatically to the user's computers, we want to make them without bothering the user, well, you could say that is the whole point about auto updates. Which implies we also don't want to bother the user to login / authenticate with administrator rights every time we deploy an update. But at least for standard setups, if you want to update a file which is installed somewhere under c:/program files, the user will be asked to login / authenticate with administrator rights.

So applications that support auto updates need to put all files they want to update into a different location, where users without administrator rights have write access. They can do it like Chrome, where they put almost all files to a folder with write permissions, but keep a very small starter app under 'c:/program files' or they can do it like we do which is installing all files under a folder with write permission. The nice thing about installing the complete installation to one folder is that the user can actually choose to move the whole installation to another location during the installation process, whereas if we would do it like Chrome, the user would be able to only decide where the small starter app goes, but the big portion of the installation would always go to the folder with write permission, which is pretty useless from my point of view. And moving the whole installation to another folder makes it even easier to keep several installations side-by-side which also some of you want to do.

So if you move the installation folder back to 'c:/program files' - or any other folder without write permissions - during installation, auto updates will be disabled for you, but the software will work without any problem.

I hope this information helps you (and again is hopefully accurate). Regards, Bernd.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:26 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Thanks for the clarification :)

Makes sense, I was just caught by surprise by the change.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7022
Thanks for clarifying, though maybe a little confused with the explanation.

Since you've introduced the auto-updates since 8.3, the experience is more of a hassle than the old way.

In my case, I install my audio programs to a different partition, the f:\ drive. Previously it remembered that location. Even now with auto-updates I'm still brought to the website to have to download the new version and install, except now have to navigate to the drive and type in the version. Not that much of a pita but it's less auto than previous installation. I'm not sure if part of the auto-update means delta update, and I don't know if Windows is capable of that, but it seems more of a hassle to do things to get it to auto-update now.

Is it really a hassle to enter admin rights? It's practically a reflex. This sounds like it caters more to users who aren't admins, giving admins more of a hassle. Personally if something is going to be installed on my computer, it's the admin who should be doing it. Moving the installation to a folder that isn't C:\ was less of a hassle before than it is now. Regardless, there is no auto-update, I still have to get on a browser to download the update and install but now with extra steps involved, though I do like that you keep user installed files intact ie scripts and skins.

Either I find the explanation confusing or it's simply backwards.

Thank you for taking a minute to explain though and excuse me if I'm misunderstanding here.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Posts: 5877
Location: Ableton Headquarters
shadx312 wrote:
Thanks for clarifying, though maybe a little confused with the explanation.

Since you've introduced the auto-updates since 8.3, the experience is more of a hassle than the old way.

In my case, I install my audio programs to a different partition, the f:\ drive. Previously it remembered that location. Even now with auto-updates I'm still brought to the website to have to download the new version and install, except now have to navigate to the drive and type in the version. Not that much of a pita but it's less auto than previous installation. I'm not sure if part of the auto-update means delta update, and I don't know if Windows is capable of that, but it seems more of a hassle to do things to get it to auto-update now.

Is it really a hassle to enter admin rights? It's practically a reflex. This sounds like it caters more to users who aren't admins, giving admins more of a hassle. Personally if something is going to be installed on my computer, it's the admin who should be doing it. Moving the installation to a folder that isn't C:\ was less of a hassle before than it is now. Regardless, there is no auto-update, I still have to get on a browser to download the update and install but now with extra steps involved, though I do like that you keep user installed files intact ie scripts and skins.

Either I find the explanation confusing or it's simply backwards.

Thank you for taking a minute to explain though and excuse me if I'm misunderstanding here.
Hi,

I'm not sure if I misunderstood something, but I do not see how downloading the software, installing it and choosing a non-default location is more of a hassle than before?

Also, maybe this is a misunderstanding: nowadays, given that you're happy having the latest version of Live, you'll have to go through this "full" installation only once. If Live is installed in a writable location, which your F: drive is I guess, Live will update automatically, which means yes, delta updates, and which doesn't require any action on your side nor opening a web browser.

I still feel I'm missing something from your post, please let me know.

Regards,
Amaury

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:18 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7022
Before, I didn't have to choose a location, it already went to F:\Program Files\Ableton\, so all I had to do was hit next.

Now, it's C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Ableton\Live 8\ the last 8.3 betas.
Last time I chose to "replace", but then at the end it said the installation couldn't be completed because there were similar files iirc.

Putting in a custom directory isn't a big deal, it's the conflict to how you're saying it should work.
When I choose to update from within Live, it still opens the browser, download the new beta, install and fix the directory, which didn't have to be done before. So, auto-updating doesn't work for me here, but it is a beta so maybe it isn't fully realized yet.
It's been full installation each time with 3b1,2 & 4.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:03 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:59 pm
Posts: 5877
Location: Ableton Headquarters
shadx312 wrote:
Before, I didn't have to choose a location, it already went to F:\Program Files\Ableton\, so all I had to do was hit next.
Hi,

You did at least once. The default intal location for Live has always been on the C: drive. I guess you once chose the F: drive?
shadx312 wrote:
Now, it's C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Ableton\Live 8\ the last 8.3 betas.
Last time I chose to "replace", but then at the end it said the installation couldn't be completed because there were similar files iirc.
That would be a wrong behaviour of the installer. We'll check, let us know if you can reproduce that.

shadx312 wrote:
Putting in a custom directory isn't a big deal, it's the conflict to how you're saying it should work.
When I choose to update from within Live, it still opens the browser, download the new beta, install and fix the directory, which didn't have to be done before. So, auto-updating doesn't work for me here, but it is a beta so maybe it isn't fully realized yet.
It's been full installation each time with 3b1,2 & 4.
You're describing a manual installation, not the auto-updates I'm talking about. You are using "check for updates" in the Help menu, which is a manual step to trigger a manual update.

Auto-updates do not require any action on your part. Once enabled, Live updates itself on startup, and you shouldn't even notice.

Regards,
Amaury

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:28 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:31 am
Posts: 429
thats what a auto-update function should do -> auto-update ;)
the only thing which is important -> write access to the install directory so that live can do automatic updates.

if you have administrator rights you can install it everywhere. if you have no admin rights but another folder with write access, you can install it there and using the auto-update too. programdata is unusual but other companies are outsourcing their datas too in this folder. and remember: its only a default location without coercion to choose it.

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D16 Nepheton - Drum Rack for Push 1.0 (Max for Live)
Sonic Charge Microtonic - Drum Rack for Push 1.0 (Max for Live)

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