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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7055
Ahhhhh
AUTO
whoosh
i guess since updating from within Live was a step in itself I overlooked the true Auto part
Sorry :P

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:15 pm
Posts: 13005
Location: The Wild West
shadx312 wrote:
Before, I didn't have to choose a location, it already went to F:\Program Files\Ableton\, so all I had to do was hit next.

Now, it's C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Ableton\Live 8\ the last 8.3 betas.
Last time I chose to "replace", but then at the end it said the installation couldn't be completed because there were similar files iirc.


F:\Program Files\* is a custom location.

C:\*\* would be more standard than that.

meaning any folder on C:\

once you change the OS default drive letter you can expect a program or two to require some intervention at [least at first] install.

i suspect the reason all you had to do was hit next is because the path was remembered.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7055
Right; it's convenient.

Btw, Amaury, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said "maybe I'm misunderstanding", if you took it like that.

Regardless, thanks for chiming in.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
I've opened and closed Live about 6 times now leaving it open for a few minutes each time and it hasn't updated anything yet.

I found a folder created called _autoupdates where I installed Live, and while it's downloaded the latest update into a folder 'delta' at 3:41PM EST, it's now 4:05PM and nothing's been updated with about 8 open & closes (2 more since I started writing this)..

When does the update actually kick in? At this rate I'd be quicker to download the update and manually install it.

edit:

seems there's a file called update_commands that's just a batch file that moves files over for the update.. can I just run this file and have updates get installed?


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
So things still haven't autoupdated at all, despite the update file being downloaded for a full hour.

There's a folder called pending_update within the _autoupdates folder that has an updated timestamp when I launch Live (as well as the update_commands batch file) but still nothing getting copied/moved to my installation.

My other Live folders all seem to have the same permissions as the _autoupdates folder, so not sure what's going on any why things haven't gone ahead and updated yet.

I've just gone ahead and downloaded things manually and updated.. at least that way I know what's going on under the hood.

edit: but now that the manual update 'replaced' my current install.. all my midi remote scripts got 'replaced' (aka deleted) in the process.. grr


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 7055
It might require a restart of Live. I use XP, so I checked the C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Application Data\Ableton area where the are a couple of Web Connector folders.
Anyway, I left minimized in the background for around an hour and checked the version a couple times and didn't see any change. I forgot to check the version when I closed it, but when I opened it up this morning it's updated.
Everything seems in tact like the Scripts.
I do not like the change with having the beta library though.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
shadx312 wrote:
It might require a restart of Live. I use XP, so I checked the C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Application Data\Ableton area where the are a couple of Web Connector folders.
Anyway, I left minimized in the background for around an hour and checked the version a couple times and didn't see any change. I forgot to check the version when I closed it, but when I opened it up this morning it's updated.
Everything seems in tact like the Scripts.
I do not like the change with having the beta library though.


That's just the thing.. I restarted Live about 6 times after leaving it sit 5-10min (to hopefully do whatever updating business was needed).
Other than downloading the files in the background, nothing was updated automatically well over an hour after the updates were downloaded.

Going to try this all again today with 8.3 getting released..

Had Live open for about 25mins while I made a run for coffee/lunch (just got back now) and it hasn't even downloaded the updates yet, or even changed the timestamp on my _autoupdates folder since March 30th (this is when I manually installed the last beta update after waiting over an hour).

So a few things for the Abes:

So now I'm kind of wondering if the beta versions are only looking for updates of beta versions and not actual releases?

Typically how long after I start Live does the autoupdate check run?

Just really scratching my head to figure out why this isn't working..


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:48 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Ableton Headquarters
@cotdagoo,

1) Beta versions only update to newer beta versions, not to release versions.

2) Only at start up, the software checks for updates. If there is one, it downloads it directly and prepares the installation, which is done, when there is a 'pending updates' folder.

3) If you close Live and there is a pending update, it will be installed right after Live was terminated, so that the next launch will be with the next version.

4) You can find a lot more information about automatic updates in the knowledge base, just type 'automatic updates' into the search field and you will see all those new articles.

5) I would really like to have a look at your computer's setup. It looks like the actual installation of the update didn't work on your machine, because downloading and preparation looked to work well as you had a 'pending updates' folder. I will PM you with more details.

Regards, Bernd.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Bernd wrote:
@cotdagoo,

1) Beta versions only update to newer beta versions, not to release versions.


Okay, figured this might be the issue today.

Bernd wrote:
2) Only at start up, the software checks for updates. If there is one, it downloads it directly and prepares the installation, which is done, when there is a 'pending updates' folder.

3) If you close Live and there is a pending update, it will be installed right after Live was terminated, so that the next launch will be with the next version.

4) You can find a lot more information about automatic updates in the knowledge base, just type 'automatic updates' into the search field and you will see all those new articles.


Appreciate this information. I had been clicking the link every days inside Live to find out more about the updates, but they hadn't been added to the knowledgebase yet.

Bernd wrote:
5) I would really like to have a look at your computer's setup. It looks like the actual installation of the update didn't work on your machine, because downloading and preparation looked to work well as you had a 'pending updates' folder. I will PM you with more details.

Regards, Bernd.


I'll check your PM.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:34 pm
Posts: 929
Location: canuhduh
Removing anything I had installed and re-installing seemed to iron out my issues with the auto updates. Not sure why things weren't updating before, but they are now.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:49 pm 

Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 2264
i don't understand how other software can easily figure out where they are located and reinstall themselfes over that location without any interference or action from the user but yours can't.
i also don't like the idea of having live autoupdate to my already crowded c-drive when i keep all my applications and temporary files on my e-drive.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:53 pm 

Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 2264
Evengy wrote:
thats what a auto-update function should do -> auto-update ;)
the only thing which is important -> write access to the install directory so that live can do automatic updates.

if you have administrator rights you can install it everywhere. if you have no admin rights but another folder with write access, you can install it there and using the auto-update too. programdata is unusual but other companies are outsourcing their datas too in this folder. and remember: its only a default location without coercion to choose it.


so it does autoupdate to wherever it's installed?
because if it doesn't, it's just stupid.
manual updates requires me to choose where it gets downloaded and i'm fine with that but the idea of an autoupdate putting files outside it's installation folder (other than the temporary file it needs to launch the installation of course) and the occasional programdata and shared components folder (Even though i'd much rather not use those either) is just stupid.

there's a reason we choose to install it outside the default location. normally it's because we don't want it there.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:15 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:04 pm
Posts: 2404
Doesn't this compromise the system's security?

I thought the reason program files can't be changed without permission is to stop viruses and other malware from changing them.

If Live is installed in Program Data it's very easy for malware to get it's hooks into it.


Also will the auto update create a restore point?

I'm really not convinced that the whole auto update thing is a good idea.

More useful to me would be an email in my inbox just letting me know when new version is available.

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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:14 pm
Posts: 170
At least we now know for sure Live 8 will not wear the compatible with Windows 7 logo 8O

Rule nr 2: Install to the correct folders by default
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dd203105.aspx

Windows provides specific locations in the file system to store programs and software components, shared application data, and application data specific to a user:
§ Applications should be installed to the Program Files folder by default. User data or application data must never be stored in this location because of the security permissions configured for this folder

§ All application data that must be shared among users on the computer should be stored within ProgramData.

All application data exclusive to a specific user and not to be shared with other users of the computer must be stored in Users\<username>\AppData

Many auto updaters install a small updating service that runs in the system context
and has the necessary rights to update the program.
This way you can keep the default location and only have to use UAC once.
Those who are dedicated to security have the installer create an account with just enough permissions to update the Live folder and have the updater running under this account.


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 Post subject: Re: New install location for windows installer?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:50 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:02 am
Posts: 230
Location: Portland, OR
filterstein wrote:
At least we now know for sure Live 8 will not wear the compatible with Windows 7 logo 8O

Seriously.

I just bought Ableton Suite today and immediately Googled for answers when the installer defaulted to ProgramData. I have never seen an application use ProgramData as an install folder before. This is bananas.

There are numerous things you can do to update applications on Windows without falling afoul of Windows logo guidelines. If Ableton is planning to release 64-bit versions of their products (which would be nice), and support Windows 8- which is more strict than Windows 7 in terms of file and execution permissions- they've really got to get on the ball. Using ProgramData as an install folder is a hack.

EDIT: I don't want to sound overly critical. Live's a great product. I know that Windows permissions are a pain when it comes to programming. Trust me, I do. But I also know from experience that there are better ways to do this that will also prepare you for 64-bit and Windows 8 support.


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