New install location for windows installer?

cotdagoo
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by cotdagoo » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:42 pm

UltimateOutsider wrote:
filterstein wrote:At least we now know for sure Live 8 will not wear the compatible with Windows 7 logo 8O
Seriously.

I just bought Ableton Suite today and immediately Googled for answers when the installer defaulted to ProgramData. I have never seen an application use ProgramData as an install folder before. This is bananas.

There are numerous things you can do to update applications on Windows without falling afoul of Windows logo guidelines. If Ableton is planning to release 64-bit versions of their products (which would be nice), and support Windows 8- which is more strict than Windows 7 in terms of file and execution permissions- they've really got to get on the ball. Using ProgramData as an install folder is a hack.

EDIT: I don't want to sound overly critical. Live's a great product. I know that Windows permissions are a pain when it comes to programming. Trust me, I do. But I also know from experience that there are better ways to do this that will also prepare you for 64-bit and Windows 8 support.
If you're the admin (or only user) the location doesn't matter one bit.

As the admin of my laptop, I have it installed to the typical location C:\Program Files (x86)\Ableton\Live 8\ and updates run fine, etc..
The ProgramData folder is just so computers with multiple users, educational setups, etc can all update without the interaction of an administrator.

UltimateOutsider
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by UltimateOutsider » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:37 pm

cotdagoo wrote:As the admin of my laptop, I have it installed to the typical location C:\Program Files (x86)\Ableton\Live 8\ and updates run fine, etc..
The ProgramData folder is just so computers with multiple users, educational setups, etc can all update without the interaction of an administrator.
Actually, multi-user scenarios are exactly the reason why you shouldn't install applications into ProgramData. If you're the IT guy who manages computers in a music lab, you don't want your users updating or modifying your applications in any way. You want to know that the computer's going to behave the same way for every person who has to use it. Placing applications in ProgramData creates more problems for the administrators of multi-user systems than it solves.

The ProgramData folder is for system-wide application settings, not program binaries. Individual user accounts have hidden AppData folders for user-specific application settings. The Public pseudo account used for shared documents and a few system-wide settings doesn't have an AppData folder, since no one actually logs into that account. Instead, Windows offers the ProgramData folder for applications to store settings that apply to all users on the system. So ProgramData is just the public version of AppData. It is not a UAC-free Program Files.

cotdagoo
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by cotdagoo » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:58 pm

UltimateOutsider wrote:
cotdagoo wrote:As the admin of my laptop, I have it installed to the typical location C:\Program Files (x86)\Ableton\Live 8\ and updates run fine, etc..
The ProgramData folder is just so computers with multiple users, educational setups, etc can all update without the interaction of an administrator.
Actually, multi-user scenarios are exactly the reason why you shouldn't install applications into ProgramData. If you're the IT guy who manages computers in a music lab, you don't want your users updating or modifying your applications in any way. You want to know that the computer's going to behave the same way for every person who has to use it. Placing applications in ProgramData creates more problems for the administrators of multi-user systems than it solves.

The ProgramData folder is for system-wide application settings, not program binaries. Individual user accounts have hidden AppData folders for user-specific application settings. The Public pseudo account used for shared documents and a few system-wide settings doesn't have an AppData folder, since no one actually logs into that account. Instead, Windows offers the ProgramData folder for applications to store settings that apply to all users on the system. So ProgramData is just the public version of AppData. It is not a UAC-free Program Files.
I know all this - that's why I created this topic to begin with.. Found it very odd.

After the few explanations made by Abes in this thread - I decided to just bypass all this and install things where they used to be. Still can't completely understand the reasoning for ProgramData to be used, but since it doesn't affect me I decided not to worry about it.

I don't envy multi-user scenarios at all.. and indeed as you mention this will likely create more headaches/hassle for system admins for multi-user environments.

twisted-space
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by twisted-space » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:25 pm

I'm a systems admin/network engineer, not a programmer. If I know that installing applications outside the program files or program files(x86) folders is bad practice, why don't Abletons developers?


Is this really the best solution you can come up with?

AlexRusin
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Location: Poland

Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by AlexRusin » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:05 pm

I installed Live on other than C: disk, because I haven't enough space, but Live took 1GB from my C: driver. What's happened? All my libraries and cache is on other than C disk...
I'm caught...

Evengy
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by Evengy » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:43 am

maybe temp files from the installer or watch your preferences in live 8. you can define your cache and recordings folder which are default on c:\users\bla\appdata\ roaming, local or something.

Evengy
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by Evengy » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:27 am

twisted-space wrote:I'm a systems admin/network engineer, not a programmer. If I know that installing applications outside the program files or program files(x86) folders is bad practice, why don't Abletons developers?

Is this really the best solution you can come up with?
why do you guys think that this is bad practice? it is a default folder nothing more. i think it is choosen to reduce the amount of support because most people do something like "click, click, click, ready". if your user account is in the administrator group then auto-update should be possible on every location.

if you don´t have the rights of an administrator, it is possible to give "write" settings to this folder or something like that.

a default "user" has no rights to write into program files or program files (x86) so auto-update can´t work. they reduce the amount of support from users who are a default user and are crying that the auto-update isn´t working.

it is your choice guys where you install live so everything is fine. it´s only unusual.

twisted-space
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by twisted-space » Wed May 02, 2012 11:52 am

Evengy wrote:why do you guys think that this is bad practice?
Because Microsoft says so.

Rule nr 2: Install to the correct folders by default
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dd203105.aspx

purusha
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Location: Leeds

Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by purusha » Fri May 04, 2012 9:45 am

Have to say - I was confused by this too (for a while).

Does seem a tad *wrong*. I don't have anything else on my system using ProgramData for its executables.

sadkin
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Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:44 pm

Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by sadkin » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:26 pm

Going nuts!!...I am trying to reinstall Live 8b4 64 because I think I messed it up on a previous attempt - no matter what I did, I was not able to get Live to find the Universal Audio powered plug-ins folder which I happily dropped in my new, 64bit VST plug-in folder. (yes, UA ver 6.4 = 64bit) (and yes I have browsed my VST folder in Live preferences and rescanned...numerous times).

So I tried to start over, uninstalled UA and Live and now during the Live install, it gets to a page where it asks to me to confirm "Install Ableton Live Beta to: (default) C:\ProgramData\Ableton\Live 8 Beta\. When I click 'Next' - as to proceed with that file destination, it gets rejected with a window which reads: "Folder Already Exists You can Only install Live to a new folder"...I have been trying to find this Ableton folder but can't even find PragramData folder in Windows!!!...thinking I'd delete the Ableton folder, whatever. Anyways, I have a hunch this is playing a part in my not being able to get Live 8b4 64 to recognize the UA plugs. How can I gain access to this folder and delete it so I can re-install from scratch!?

H20nly
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Re: New install location for windows installer?

Post by H20nly » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:28 am

@ sadkin

go to Start > Computer

or, hold down the Windows Key + E

either method will open Windows Explorer.

in the upper left you should see a large button that says "Organize"
click that and select "Folder and Search Options"
click the "View" tab
click the radio button that says "Show hidden files, folders and drives"

you might also need to uncheck the box two items below that says "Hide Protected operating system files (Recommended)"

after you click "OK"...
go to the address bar of the open Windows Explorer window.
right click on Computer
select "Edit Address"
paste "C:\ProgramData\Ableton"
hit Enter

if you unchecked "Hide Protected operating system files (Recommended)" you will start seeing translucent files in folders. if you can see through the file... it is one that is used by the system. to hide those again you will have to undo the changes outlined above.
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

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