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 Post subject: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
Hi everyone, I've been dealing with what I think it's a major bug or flaw in Ableton Live, for YEARS!, I've been in contact with Ableton people, which are great and fast, but this is a bug they apparently can't repair?! So that got me curious, cause the only reason a software developer won't take care of a problem is because there isn't enough people complaining right?
So here it is: did you ever noticed your mix changing in subtle (or massive!) ways while listening to your song from beginning to end in Ableton Live? if yes then there's a reason for that, your plugins may A. not be following automations properly B. adding & following automations of their own C. turning on that wonderfully UNIQUE feature that is the BACK TO ARRANGEMENT button...
I have 3 exemples with 3 different MAJOR plugin developpers: Mc DSP, Soundtoys, EMI Abbey Road.
If you take lets say the McDSP 6030 compressor and put it on a track with say a 1176 preset, copy paste some audio (like a 1 bar loop) then check your automations, now every pasted audio has changed your preset from 1176 to the 357 preset! btw this doesn't happen if you put this plugin FIRST in the chain.
With EMI eq's SOMETIMES they just won't follow automation at all, but WON'T turn the Back to Arrangement button red either! so you're pretty much in the dark. What about if you just got 1 db boost automated for the bridge?? do you really have time to double check every single automation while mixing and bouncing? cause I don't...
With Soundtoys automation is just mayhem, the back to Arrangement Button turns red either all the time, or randomly.
With a Mc DSP EQ is even more strange, cause when watching the plugin parameters follow automation sometimes you'll think it's not, visually, but you can still theneq at work!!

So I mean, with little boosts and cuts automated here and there you might not even realize that your mix it's not going exactly as planned due to this bug, so maybe that's why not much people realize how bad this is. But here's the thing, I believe this is an Ableton problem, this plugins i'm talking about are major, have been aware of this problem for months or even years, and aren't doing anything about it, why? cause this just happens in Live and I think it's related to how Live handles automation and that BACK TO ARRANGEMENT NIGHTMARE which is completely useless to me, I'm a score/soundtrack composer and producer.

I asked Ableton for an option to turn the Back to Arrangement on and off, they say they don't know if this is going to happen.... So I'm asking everyone here who can help with this matter to talk about any similar problems you might have, with maybe other plugins, so that a solution may arise at some point and I can finnally CONCENTRATE ON MAKING MUSIC, I though this was Live's purpose in the first place and why I moved from Pro Tools to Ableton.

Thanks for reading.


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:05 am
Posts: 86
Had this issue using ViennaEnsemblePro5, VSL solved that with the latest update.
It seems to be plugin specific, ie something's going on with VST handling in live which causes this.

There has to be a "decouple" function implemented which prevents plugins from sending param data to live in arrange view, just receiving from live...


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:56 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
TabSel wrote:
Had this issue using ViennaEnsemblePro5, VSL solved that with the latest update.
It seems to be plugin specific, ie something's going on with VST handling in live which causes this.

There has to be a "decouple" function implemented which prevents plugins from sending param data to live in arrange view, just receiving from live...





Right, but this happens with AU too, I mostly use AU actually...


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:06 pm
Posts: 266
Location: vancouver
Bump. I'm having this problem right now, I think, with FabFilter Volcano. My track won't render the automation from that plugin; it renders as if there's no automation, then the "back to arrangement" button turns on after rendering. :(


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
merges wrote:
Bump. I'm having this problem right now, I think, with FabFilter Volcano. My track won't render the automation from that plugin; it renders as if there's no automation, then the "back to arrangement" button turns on after rendering. :(




Good news is that I finally got Soundtoys and McDSP to aknowledge this and they told me they're talking to Ableton, so I don't know when this is gonna happen but at least something is in the works! :D


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:06 pm
Posts: 266
Location: vancouver
That's good news. I have been in touch with Ableton support and we've done everything reasonable to rule out MIDI issues. So it seems FabFilter plugins may sometimes suffer from the same or a similar problem. I've just contacted them too and will see what they have to say.


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:26 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
Maybe we should make a petition for Ableton to put the "Back To Arrangement" as an option you could turn off, they don't seem to want to do it, yet Live has evolved from a DJ software into a full recording/production studio, and that function is just irrelevant for people making albums or scores etc... It is actually ONLY TROUBLE, it causes not only plugin and automation instability but also midi controller instability, for instance my Novation Impulse makes Live go into Back To Arrangement mode when pressing the Loop button almost every time...

This function needs to evolve a bit don't you think Ableton???!!!


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
The Vertigo plugin from BRAINWORX gets unrequested automations to 8 parameters when copy and pasting regions, that means each pasted region gets 8 parameters automations that you need to erase one by one.

Never ending automation bugs with Ableton Live. These have been going on for years. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:47 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:08 pm
Posts: 6
This problem is a joke, the real problem is by the time it manifests itself you have already bought their product, so they don't seem to give a damn.

I spend hours dealing with constant crashed bugs and the dreaded back to arrangement button fiasco...

My crash reports I sent are probably going to be used to make 10 foot high collage for them to all laugh at, cos they don't do anything else with them...

... hopefully Bitwig is going to be Ableton without the bugs...


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:11 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
mangiedog wrote:
This problem is a joke, the real problem is by the time it manifests itself you have already bought their product, so they don't seem to give a damn.

I spend hours dealing with constant crashed bugs and the dreaded back to arrangement button fiasco...

My crash reports I sent are probably going to be used to make 10 foot high collage for them to all laugh at, cos they don't do anything else with them...

... hopefully Bitwig is going to be Ableton without the bugs...





I moved from Pro Tools to LIVE a couple of years ago cause it felt more creative to me, and I do like LIVE, but like you said, that BACK TO ARRANGEMENT thing is a fiasco, and the fact that they tell you not to use all the major and serious plugins available to avoid that problem..... well, that's a joke!! :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm
Posts: 10
mangiedog wrote:
This problem is a joke, the real problem is by the time it manifests itself you have already bought their product, so they don't seem to give a damn.

I spend hours dealing with constant crashed bugs and the dreaded back to arrangement button fiasco...

My crash reports I sent are probably going to be used to make 10 foot high collage for them to all laugh at, cos they don't do anything else with them...

... hopefully Bitwig is going to be Ableton without the bugs...




BTW I've writing to the plugin companies AND Ableton about this for years, and so should you and everyone out there who likes LIVE and would like to make it a more stable DAW. They WILL have to do something about this someday!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: BACK TO ARRANGEMENT BUG!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:06 pm
Posts: 266
Location: vancouver
I'm pretty confident Ableton work hard to fix bugs and improve Live. It is a complex and powerful product that gets better as the years go by; prioritizing bugs and workflow improvements and new functionality is a difficult game of resource allocation and work effort. While you and I have experienced this bug and have ideas about how we might solve it, few others have or it may be difficult or impossible to reproduce or troubleshoot regularly, or the seemingly straightforward solution might be equally difficult to implement.

Of course I'd like this fixed too, but it would be ludicrous of me to extrapolate from this bug all kinds of wild ideas about live and ableton and bittwig and commitment to development. Everybody wants something different, hey,


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