Push first impressions and critiques

Discuss Push with other users.
Valyo
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Push first impressions and critiques

Post by Valyo » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:13 pm

Hello,
Having spent some time now with my Push which arrived on Thursday, I thought I'd give you my impressions and hopefully the folks at ableton are taking some notes.

So let's start with negative stuff which almost made me think of returning the unit. The biggest turn off for me is that you can't really edit all the parameters of the synths. There appears to be a selection of important parameters but that really doesn;t work for me. I use Operator extensively and inside out, and there isn't a way to control something as fundamental as the waveform of the oscillators!!!! So if you load the deafault patch and you don;t wannna use the mouse, all you've got is sine waves. Of course, I know that there is a way to map that to a macro, blablabla, but that's not the point. If you are following the dictum 'create songs from scratch' it is fundamental that you are able to control all of the parameters of the synths. Otherwise, what do you end up with? Using pre-programmed presets? Thanks, but no thanks! Or alternatively you have to spend time first designing the sounds you want to use, and then turn to Push just to play around, record some automation, etc. Sorry, but for me and for many other users the sound design is an essential part of the creative process. Otherwise, this device is just aimed at preset flicker type of 'producers'. I think it should not be such an issue to implement all of the parameters in the Push interface - sure you'll have to go back and forth between menus, but that's much preferable than having to spend separately some time with the mouse making sounds and then putting them to creative use. With time I can imagine getting really fast finding the parameters I need. And really what's the problem of having simply more pages of menus on the Push interface? (I am sure there is even a clever way to implement the powerful additive features of Operator of being able to build custom wave forms within push - it takes 4 fields - harmonic No, Harmonic level, next harmonic, previous harmonic) Anyway, I sincerely hope Ableton figures this out, becuase that's a major turn down.
I use Operator and Analog extensively and the way I work is by starting with a blank patch and creating the sound up to my taste and what works in the context of my track. I'm not interested in any presets.
Other minus points go for Drum racks limitations - like - there should be a way to control everything that you can do on the screen. Like creating nested effect chains and sending signals from each of the sample slots. Also, when you're building, a drum rack from scratch, the hot-swap function should work like it works in Live. When you click the Browse button and you are able to flick with the up and down green buttons, you should be able to hear the samples just by going up and down, and not having to load the samples. It should work like it does on the screen when you hit the hotswap button and you can flick witht he arrow keys to listen to the samples. I know it may seem like a minor point, but this slows down the workflow tremendously.
A big minus point goes also to the step sequencer mode when you want to edit the velocity of the notes. Why show relative changes in the value? what does this bring me, I can't figure out...just show the 1-127 values. I wanted to create some interesting ghost notes type of fills and I found it impossible to work with this relative values - if I know which note is playing at what velocity it would easier.
I sincerely hope these are all a matter of software tweaks and they will be implemented in future updates. If I have to be very crude, I'd say at it's current state Push is pretty much useless for advanced sound design type of work, when it comes even to the native Ableton instruments and devices. I won't even start with third party VSTs.

On the bright side, Push is very well built and is very responsive. If ignore that Velocity problem mentioned above, the step sequencer and the Drum Programming implementation is great and is very fun.
The Instrument mode is also very cool and I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but it is very intuitive for guitar players like myself! Basically when you swithch on the chromatic mode, it looks like a guitar fretboard layout at least for the note relationships in of the EADG strings :) that's very cool!

So Push, not too bad for a start, but you can do much better! "Creating songs from scratch" marketing message does not deliver at this point.

So far my score is 2.5/5

lo.key
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:05 pm

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by lo.key » Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:36 pm

valyo wrote:spend time first designing the sounds you want to use, and then turn to Push just to play around
personally, i find this workflow is the most productive way to go, to prevent getting lost in the weeds while composing. Spend time on sound design and critical editing, and then once you have a set of instruments made, sit down and compose on then with a creative mindset. To me, to combine the two is like sitting down and building yourself a new guitar before each new creative session, which seems counterproductive. But your mileage may vary.


a question though, you are using the 'in' arrow button for the operator patch, to see other parameters of the synth? You should be able to access much more than the first bank of 8 provided. Or is it that the waveform parameter just not showing up at all?

Valyo
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:47 pm
Location: London, UK
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Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by Valyo » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:32 pm

Yes, I know about the in button and, no I can't see waveform selection options there.

Regarding your comment 'first design, then create' I guess that one way, but I often find that the design and sound shaping is directly influencing the creative decisions what to play and how, etc...I can't separate the two.
And really, there aren't all that many parameters to get lost to, i think, when we speak about the Ableton instruments. Also, with practice your speed in dealing with that increases.

anyway I hope they improve the integration with the native ableton instruments. At the end it does not seem to me that it is as deep as they were advertizing it to be...

humnumb
Posts: 636
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:27 pm

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by humnumb » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:58 pm

Valyo wrote:I often find that the design and sound shaping is directly influencing the creative decisions what to play and how, etc...I can't separate the two.
And really, there aren't all that many parameters to get lost to, i think, when we speak about the Ableton instruments. Also, with practice your speed in dealing with that increases.

anyway I hope they improve the integration with the native ableton instruments. At the end it does not seem to me that it is as deep as they were advertizing it to be...
Yeah, it's quite perplexing that so many basic things were left out of Push, like loading audio samples, step sequencing regular MIDI clips, slicing to MIDI, add/removing warp markers, editing start/end points of unwarped audio clips, plugin automapping, accessing Drum Rack sends and mixer, not even having access to all parameters of their own devices...etc.

For advanced sound design with hands-on mouseless hardware-based control over all parameters of any software synth plugin, I'd recommend Maschine which integrates seamlessly with Live. Maschine automaps all parameters of any VST/AU plugins. And for the excellent synths like FM8, Razor, Monark, Massive, Absynth...etc. and the rest of Komplete 9, the way the parameters automap is even better and very well organized: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcWIW6Muw9U

#1thelark
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by #1thelark » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:00 pm

Valyo wrote:Hello,
Having spent some time now with my Push which arrived on Thursday, I thought I'd give you my impressions and hopefully the folks at ableton are taking some notes.

So let's start with negative stuff which almost made me think of returning the unit. The biggest turn off for me is that you can't really edit all the parameters of the synths. There appears to be a selection of important parameters but that really doesn;t work for me. I use Operator extensively and inside out, and there isn't a way to control something as fundamental as the waveform of the oscillators!!!! So if you load the deafault patch and you don;t wannna use the mouse, all you've got is sine waves. Of course, I know that there is a way to map that to a macro, blablabla, but that's not the point. If you are following the dictum 'create songs from scratch' it is fundamental that you are able to control all of the parameters of the synths. Otherwise, what do you end up with? Using pre-programmed presets? Thanks, but no thanks! Or alternatively you have to spend time first designing the sounds you want to use, and then turn to Push just to play around, record some automation, etc. Sorry, but for me and for many other users the sound design is an essential part of the creative process. Otherwise, this device is just aimed at preset flicker type of 'producers'. I think it should not be such an issue to implement all of the parameters in the Push interface - sure you'll have to go back and forth between menus, but that's much preferable than having to spend separately some time with the mouse making sounds and then putting them to creative use. With time I can imagine getting really fast finding the parameters I need. And really what's the problem of having simply more pages of menus on the Push interface? (I am sure there is even a clever way to implement the powerful additive features of Operator of being able to build custom wave forms within push - it takes 4 fields - harmonic No, Harmonic level, next harmonic, previous harmonic) Anyway, I sincerely hope Ableton figures this out, becuase that's a major turn down.
I use Operator and Analog extensively and the way I work is by starting with a blank patch and creating the sound up to my taste and what works in the context of my track. I'm not interested in any presets.
Other minus points go for Drum racks limitations - like - there should be a way to control everything that you can do on the screen. Like creating nested effect chains and sending signals from each of the sample slots. Also, when you're building, a drum rack from scratch, the hot-swap function should work like it works in Live. When you click the Browse button and you are able to flick with the up and down green buttons, you should be able to hear the samples just by going up and down, and not having to load the samples. It should work like it does on the screen when you hit the hotswap button and you can flick witht he arrow keys to listen to the samples. I know it may seem like a minor point, but this slows down the workflow tremendously.
A big minus point goes also to the step sequencer mode when you want to edit the velocity of the notes. Why show relative changes in the value? what does this bring me, I can't figure out...just show the 1-127 values. I wanted to create some interesting ghost notes type of fills and I found it impossible to work with this relative values - if I know which note is playing at what velocity it would easier.
I sincerely hope these are all a matter of software tweaks and they will be implemented in future updates. If I have to be very crude, I'd say at it's current state Push is pretty much useless for advanced sound design type of work, when it comes even to the native Ableton instruments and devices. I won't even start with third party VSTs.

On the bright side, Push is very well built and is very responsive. If ignore that Velocity problem mentioned above, the step sequencer and the Drum Programming implementation is great and is very fun.
The Instrument mode is also very cool and I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but it is very intuitive for guitar players like myself! Basically when you swithch on the chromatic mode, it looks like a guitar fretboard layout at least for the note relationships in of the EADG strings :) that's very cool!

So Push, not too bad for a start, but you can do much better! "Creating songs from scratch" marketing message does not deliver at this point.

So far my score is 2.5/5

Have you looked at ClyphX and the included Macrobat scripts?
This (Macrobat in particular) would enable you to create some midiracks which give you access to many (if not all) of your desired synth parameters.

lo.key
Posts: 360
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:05 pm

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by lo.key » Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:08 pm

ack that is too bad, very odd to see that parameter left out :p

jsn
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: JKPG SWEDEN

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by jsn » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:41 pm

Hi. I love this extremely intuitive device..despite any parameter limitations, I give Ableton standing applause. And so it is known I am also a synth/sampler deep programmer but I don't care that some params are missing in Operator,MFL devices etc... There was a reason for all decisions made about this device and they sure did the BEST they could to get this out to us with the best SOLID, hi-tech, responsive, portable, efficient build they could provide for a decent price. NO regrets. I am hopeful for the future of this integration tech and I think it is time to have a serious and positive community surrounding this software company so they can be inspired to create updates and add new features.

-- I love the Note mode and the Scales integration and how the in-key and chromatic grid is inspiring new ways to realise melodic sequences.
-- Love the repeat mode
-- Blown away by the brilliance of the display and decipherable accuracy of the colour leds to represent clips/velocity level/etc
-- excellent intuitive programming nature of devices and fx. the structure is quite logical and quick to navigate (IMO). I was amazed how quick I was able to learn Push inside and out despite being heavily intimidated by the interface when I took it out of its packaging.
-- some buttons are difficult to press when needing instant response... i've just learned to adapt. somehow it's not a problem anymore. I guess after several sessions now my pushing finger is stronger ;P
-- big fan of stop mute solo functionality. really quick to hear session view ideas with these.
-- I like the duplicate button. quick way to not interrupt composing variations on an idea.
-- yes, missing some KEY parameters from some synths and MFL devices but... I still love programming what is there.
-- Also as a bonus it seems my girlfriend is now excited to learn Live so she can play with the pretty blinking lights.. I've always wanted to collab with her.. Push may be the key! She's already got it down in one afternoon..A great way to teach Live actually

Thanks a lot Ableton!
Live Suite 9.5 (32-bit), MFL 6.1.3 (416a295), Win7HP

jsn
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: JKPG SWEDEN

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by jsn » Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:53 am

About the lack of parameter control with Operator, I have now found a MFL device called 16 Macros which allows mapping of 16 different parameters from a Live track (this device has an easy Learn Mode as well as 3 accessable 'banks' of 16 macros in PUSH). One big problem is that the macros only show up as "dial 1,2,3,4,5" when in device mode in PUSH so you have to remember [or glance at the screen] to see which dial is which param. For the other env, filter, lfo parmaters you can select Operator in device mode and go into it with the IN key. I've also mapped useful params such as filter on, lfo on, lfo range, and some other FM opertor env params not available to push's default control of Operator. It would be great if Vayner from Covert Ops (the creator of this MFL device) could update 16 macros to work better with PUSH! Great device Vayner!
Live Suite 9.5 (32-bit), MFL 6.1.3 (416a295), Win7HP

manutech
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:59 pm

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by manutech » Wed May 08, 2013 10:00 pm

jsn wrote:I've also mapped useful params such as filter on, lfo on, lfo range, and some other FM opertor env params not available to push's default control of Operator. It would be great if Vayner from Covert Ops (the creator of this MFL device) could update 16 macros to work better with PUSH!
Thanks for pointing a solution to the parameter limitation of push.

Any other suggestion for changing the automap settings or creating our own parameter banks for default devices such as Operator?


enveehaa
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:35 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by enveehaa » Thu May 09, 2013 11:32 am

Check out PXT-Live by NativeKontrol!
Adds a looooot of functionality to Push.
(Got those Traschine-molls to shut up finally. :lol: :twisted: )
MacbookPro
OSX 10.8.3
Live 9.0.4 Suite
Push
PXT Live
YamahaHS50M monitors

panten
Posts: 934
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:02 pm
Location: South of London

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by panten » Thu May 09, 2013 12:05 pm

Yeah whatever happened to humbnumb, I really miss that guy. :twisted:

enveehaa
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:35 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by enveehaa » Thu May 09, 2013 3:07 pm

Think he's beta-ing pxt. Having way to much fun.
MacbookPro
OSX 10.8.3
Live 9.0.4 Suite
Push
PXT Live
YamahaHS50M monitors

JuanSOLO
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:21 am
Location: Shreveport LA, sometimes Dallas/Ft Worth TX

Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by JuanSOLO » Fri May 10, 2013 3:23 am

Live offers no access to user waveforms in Operator, not even through midi mapping.

Again, LIME by native Kontrol allows you to define in what order parameters are blue handed.

I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger on PUSH, I'm pretty sure it's typical Ableton, really attractive yet missing functions that seem crucial. I.e. there is still no storing parameters per clip in Live (snapshots) :roll:

SuburbanThug
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Re: Push first impressions and critiques

Post by SuburbanThug » Fri May 10, 2013 8:31 am

PluginAutopopulateThreshold

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