Poor PUSH

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artpunk
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by artpunk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:58 am

Theo Void wrote:This wasn't a Push vs. Maschine thread. I even said that in the original post. This is a, how are you liking Push? Thread.
So back on topic then...
I am liking it a lot. A real lot. :D

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

irrelevance
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by irrelevance » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:24 am

Citizen wrote:Not trying to stir things up, but those that sing Push's praises the strongest, seem to be consistently those who have not experienced the Maschine workflow.

Just an observation, thats all.

(for what its worth, as a DAW, Maschine is a joke - but for getting ideas down quick in a hands-on manner, I think its unparalleled)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Theo Void
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Theo Void » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:15 am

irrelevance wrote:
Citizen wrote:Not trying to stir things up, but those that sing Push's praises the strongest, seem to be consistently those who have not experienced the Maschine workflow.

Just an observation, thats all.

(for what its worth, as a DAW, Maschine is a joke - but for getting ideas down quick in a hands-on manner, I think its unparalleled)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
lol, but that post wasn't the beginning.
Perhaps you'e thinking of "half-way thru reasoning."

panten
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by panten » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:55 pm

Theo Void, I have a feeling that if you bought a Push you will be disappointed. You seem pretty sold on the Maschine workflow and it has liberated you already. I reckon it would have been the same for me if I hadn't managed to nab a Push in the 1st round so I see your dilemma.

You dismissed one of Push' most important workflow features, that is, jamming across 64 pads in scales or chromatically. This bewilders me as I never liked trying to play anything other than drums/percussion/glitches with the 4x4 grid. Always felt claustrophobic.

So with this down what is left?

Recording automation by simply holding an encoder for one. I really appreciate this idea; it works really well for my purposes and I particularly like that I don't need to constantly toggle on/off a button to record over previous automation i.e just let go of an encoder and it stops recording.
Quick question. How does Maschine as a vst plugin handle automation of it's parameters? I presume you can't do step automation this way and get your clips into the arrangement view. It's a one way street right?
So for me having these automation parameters right there; still tweakable in the Live environment is a huge plus.

Not every parameter of every Live instrument is mapped to Push, but.. For the ones that are I've been tweaking more in real-time while playing different riffs and coming up with more unique sounds than I ever have then recording automated variations has totally opened up Live for me. It all just feels way more immediate to me and I'm getting stuff to the arrangement view so much faster than I ever have.

What else is there?

Playable drums, step sequencing and bar loop selection at the same time.. I love it. For all the stuff that is missing from Push I actually appreciate the simplicity and immediacy of the default workflows. After spending time in PXT-Live for the more complex controls it offers (which by the way is very appreciated) going back to default is like coming up for air [then back down for those pearly goodies]

With these things + dedicated max4live Push devices and custom Scripts like PXT-Live it's a pretty powerful beast, and it's still in its infancy.

One final word from me. With all the deeper editing available from PXT it's become clear that Maschine will have its hands full if they are expanding it to have more DAW features. For it to compete with the bigger boys it's going to become even more modifier heavy and that will take away from its strength.

*edit* One thing I forgot to mention that I love from PXT-Live. Enter DrumRack mode and you now have 64 Pads to play across at the same time. :O

Theo Void
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Theo Void » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:57 pm

panten wrote:Theo Void, I have a feeling that if you bought a Push you will be disappointed. You seem pretty sold on the Maschine workflow and it has liberated you already. I reckon it would have been the same for me if I hadn't managed to nab a Push in the 1st round so I see your dilemma.

You dismissed one of Push' most important workflow features, that is, jamming across 64 pads in scales or chromatically. This bewilders me as I never liked trying to play anything other than drums/percussion/glitches with the 4x4 grid. Always felt claustrophobic.

So with this down what is left?

Recording automation by simply holding an encoder for one. I really appreciate this idea; it works really well for my purposes and I particularly like that I don't need to constantly toggle on/off a button to record over previous automation i.e just let go of an encoder and it stops recording.
Quick question. How does Maschine as a vst plugin handle automation of it's parameters? I presume you can't do step automation this way and get your clips into the arrangement view. It's a one way street right?
So for me having these automation parameters right there; still tweakable in the Live environment is a huge plus.

Not every parameter of every Live instrument is mapped to Push, but.. For the ones that are I've been tweaking more in real-time while playing different riffs and coming up with more unique sounds than I ever have then recording automated variations has totally opened up Live for me. It all just feels way more immediate to me and I'm getting stuff to the arrangement view so much faster than I ever have.

What else is there?

Playable drums, step sequencing and bar loop selection at the same time.. I love it. For all the stuff that is missing from Push I actually appreciate the simplicity and immediacy of the default workflows. After spending time in PXT-Live for the more complex controls it offers (which by the way is very appreciated) going back to default is like coming up for air [then back down for those pearly goodies]

With these things + dedicated max4live Push devices and custom Scripts like PXT-Live it's a pretty powerful beast, and it's still in its infancy.

One final word from me. With all the deeper editing available from PXT it's become clear that Maschine will have its hands full if they are expanding it to have more DAW features. For it to compete with the bigger boys it's going to become even more modifier heavy and that will take away from its strength.

*edit* One thing I forgot to mention that I love from PXT-Live. Enter DrumRack mode and you now have 64 Pads to play across at the same time. :O
I think I'll enjoy it when I get it. As I said, Live is my main #1 music making environment so I think I'd appreciate everything it has to offer especially with the PXT scripts. My launchpad is one of my favorite pieces of gear (with LPC of course) and it's like a Push Jr.
When comparing to Maschine I probably would favor maschine a bit just because I've been getting really into it and it really fits into my workflow. But, as was mentioned already, it's had ample time to develop into what it is. I really only use it for drums and to play chopped samples rhythmically, which I used to do w/ my Launchpad. Where it excels though is in the ease of browsing, loading, automating and really just getting things outta my head fast and down on tape.

For me, one of the hardest things in Live was starting a track. I'd meticulously build a Drum Rack, then start creating sounds on synths, re-sampling them, finding outside samples and then manually chopping it all up and re-arranging it like a puzzle. This process is just so much more fun on Maschine. Sure the soft-ware is basic but it's enough to really get something going before I transfer over to Live and start arranging. basically, Maschine is my new session view.

I basically bounce EVERYTHING down to audio so the whole sample work-flow is where I'm coming from. Drums are a huge part of the type of music I make too.

I am getting a Push and I can't wait. I'm also see that I seemed to dismiss the "jamming" aspect in an earlier post. I take that back. That IS definitely a powerful feature as I am not a keyboardist. In fact, I could see the Push as my melody machine. I could write all my synths and melodies on it much like I write drums and chopped samples on Maschine. So, in that way, it would be my perfect set-up! Also, added functionality is surely on the way.

I was just hoping for more control over Live w/ Push but I see now that Push is meant to be a new instrument not merely a controller to browse patches and such. Also, being able to "play" automation rather than draw it (always boring) will be LOVELY! I 've got a taste of it in Maschine but it much more use-ful on melodic material.

This thread was meant to guage how satisfied everyone is w/ Push. I'm all over it either way!!!!!

Buleriachk
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Buleriachk » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:09 pm

I am very much with Theo Void; I too have a Maschine Mk2, an APC40, a Launchpad, and have used Live 9 as my goto DAW ever since it came out (with brief forays into Fruity Loops and Sonar).

And I, too, have been looking at Push (which I don't think is quite ready for prime time yet for my applications)

I'm a guitarist, with some keyboard chops; most keyboard controllers have the ability to transpose both octaves and steps, and one can always use the pitch control in Live; and in Maschine, it is very easy to set the root note, etc..... so that's not much of an issue for me....

My primary use for Maschine is for loops for backing tracks in complex rhythm structures, and it is HUGE for that. Live 9 is no slouch, mind you, and will only get better, but for now I am absolutely delighted with Maschine - I'm not convinced that the push button approach for melody is better than a conventional keyboard, especially since both Ableton and Maschine allow its use.

That said, IMO and experience, the samples/sounds that come with Maschine are far, far superior to those of Live 9. There are even Oriental percussion kits, with full loops available. I've ported some of these into Live, but still find it much more convenient to stick to Maschine in Live as a VST.... The combination of the two is unbeatable (I didn't need the upgrade from 8 to 9, but Live has been a good ol' hoss, and has to be supported). That said, before Maschine, Ableton's drum racks were the best of all available worlds by far....

With the APC40 and Launchpad immediately available to me, it is hard to see how an additional Push would be much of an improvement, especially with the tools available in Live 9, and especially at the current price.

But for those without Maschine Mk2, the Apc40 and Launchpad, I can see where Push would be a difficult choice..... At my level of knowledge, I am happy with my current controllers, but I am fighting GAS for Push, and like Theo Void, I may not win.....

Theo Void
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Theo Void » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:46 pm

Buleriachk wrote:I am very much with Theo Void; I too have a Maschine Mk2, an APC40, a Launchpad, and have used Live 9 as my goto DAW ever since it came out (with brief forays into Fruity Loops and Sonar).

And I, too, have been looking at Push (which I don't think is quite ready for prime time yet for my applications)

I'm a guitarist, with some keyboard chops; most keyboard controllers have the ability to transpose both octaves and steps, and one can always use the pitch control in Live; and in Maschine, it is very easy to set the root note, etc..... so that's not much of an issue for me....

My primary use for Maschine is for loops for backing tracks in complex rhythm structures, and it is HUGE for that. Live 9 is no slouch, mind you, and will only get better, but for now I am absolutely delighted with Maschine - I'm not convinced that the push button approach for melody is better than a conventional keyboard, especially since both Ableton and Maschine allow its use.

That said, IMO and experience, the samples/sounds that come with Maschine are far, far superior to those of Live 9. There are even Oriental percussion kits, with full loops available. I've ported some of these into Live, but still find it much more convenient to stick to Maschine in Live as a VST.... The combination of the two is unbeatable (I didn't need the upgrade from 8 to 9, but Live has been a good ol' hoss, and has to be supported). That said, before Maschine, Ableton's drum racks were the best of all available worlds by far....

With the APC40 and Launchpad immediately available to me, it is hard to see how an additional Push would be much of an improvement, especially with the tools available in Live 9, and especially at the current price.

But for those without Maschine Mk2, the Apc40 and Launchpad, I can see where Push would be a difficult choice..... At my level of knowledge, I am happy with my current controllers, but I am fighting GAS for Push, and like Theo Void, I may not win.....
Ya, I too am a guitarist, song-writer w/ a little bit of keyboard skills. I figure the GAS is gonna take over. If it were available I'd probably go buy it right now!!

lyovino
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by lyovino » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:25 pm

I don't do that much chopping of samples, but maybe you guys can get something from this.
It looked interesting, It's a little ruff and I know some of the things he is doing can be tweaked but it seems to work..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXirFULvpjI
iMac, Intel Core i7, 2.8 GHz, 16GB
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Push, Apogee Ensemble

humnumb
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by humnumb » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:32 pm

Theo Void wrote:Long story short, the Maschine is an amazing, well thought out, well implemented and finished piece of kit. It has changed my work-flow for the better in too many ways to mention. A truly amazing instrument. And, that's all I'll say about it.
I approve this message.

deva
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by deva » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:16 am

Theo Void wrote:This wasn't a Push vs. Maschine thread. I even said that in the original post. This is a, how are you liking Push? Thread.

Then why do you keep bringing up Maschine?

realtrance
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by realtrance » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:46 am

I've been into groove-box-y things with no shame for a little while now, from Roland D2 (cheep fun!) to MV-8800 (OMG the POW3r....) to some other pices. Enjoy arpeggiators, too. I easily succumb though to the "hey it's just a fancy Wurlitzer Organ with auto-accompaniment" jadedness, and even though I have no interest in ever selling or performing to/for an audience, I do like to play music to come up with my own thing, not other people's, re-mixed (fine, no prejudices against that, just not my interest, though with Traktor DJ available free today on App Store.....). Well anyways.

Just got into Maschine after many years waiting; can see doing that for Push at some point, too. They're certainly not that expensive.

I like them because they make me, keyboard player, with far too many classically-trained musical instincts I've trained myself out of over the years, do things differently.

I think any of the frustrations either with Push or Maschine grow out of forcing them to try to fit into your habits, instead of your flowing, gelatinous-like, around their Tantric Nature.

Push is young and will grow. Maschine was too, once upon a time.

Give them a chance and become like them; you'll maybe discover something new.

And it's not broken if it works, that's the circuit bender's motto, remember that. And it always works if it's doing something, especially if that something breaks and frustrates your expectations. That's a good thing. :D

Theo Void
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Theo Void » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:48 am

deva wrote:
Theo Void wrote:This wasn't a Push vs. Maschine thread. I even said that in the original post. This is a, how are you liking Push? Thread.

Then why do you keep bringing up Maschine?
Because. That's why.

Anyway, to the above poster. I dig your style bro!! Positive mind frame!!

cyclicAMP
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by cyclicAMP » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:07 pm

realtrance wrote:Push is young and will grow. Maschine was too, once upon a time.

Give them a chance and become like them; you'll maybe discover something new.

And it's not broken if it works, that's the circuit bender's motto, remember that. And it always works if it's doing something, especially if that something breaks and frustrates your expectations. That's a good thing. :D
Love it! Push the Maschine through the illuminated dream!

Blendton
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Blendton » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Dudes, I feel so bad right now.

I had to trash broken gear and sell my little stuff, so I f***ing have some withdrawal and can't be too far from my piano.

And bing, I fully FEEL what Push is. A "play" and "perform" tool.

There isn't even a single opponent.


Yeah yeah, if Maschine" poster answers, YES I KNOW it's more than cool, yes I know it's really efficient.

But playing like if I put my hands on a Steinway Grand Piano on a scene, doing melodies...

Ableton, you nasty guys, with your "News" about somme videos which are, fore some, awesome :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpgW83H ... r_embedded

Push is not for pros or casuals, it's for musicians loving to do impros and since it allows "less skilled" users by showing if a pad is off-scale...

I'm a pianist and watching this, crap, if this isn't fake, sorry :

I'm using keyboard+mouse, I hate this, I have to order a Push despite unable to and even if I was, shipping isn't fast (as I read in many related topics/posts)

And if it allows me to do the Maschine job for prod, or my Djing with pads and APC40 (poor APC40, I hate Akai for not having warned the play-rec+switch on killing device, I just wanted to "crossefade-ready" work :( )

>>> If you manage to feel after this post, the withdrawal thing I mentioned, and understand, indeed remember you love performing more than recording... I thing Push is for you.

I hope the distress I tried to put in this text can sum up what is and what for, but at first "who for it has been conceived" ; I mean I could do so much if that box can allow this musician to spoof me with a nice (improvised or not no matter) Piano lullaby...

BTW : for professional statements I can't say a word before seeing the gear, the piano vid could be a marketing fake I dunno for now)

Warm regards
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

Blendton
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Re: Poor PUSH

Post by Blendton » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:26 pm

I forgot : Maschine doesn't make me excited about perfomance but about its more "producer loving producing" features, I only told you that besides being both (not pro anymore since 2010), if I cannot buy even one of the two, giving me the choice would provoke a Push ordering THEN when wothdrawal stuff being gone, rethink about completing my NI stuff since I enjoy all NI related gear.

:wink:
Antoine, aka Blendton.

OS : Windows 8 Professional with Media Center - x64
Ableton Live 9 Suite (64-bit) & Ableton Suite 8 + Max for Live (32-bit)
Toshiba Qosmio F750 + lenticular glasses-free 3D
i7 2670QM 2,20GHz - 2x4GB DDR3-1333 - 5400rpm HDD

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