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Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:37 pm
by Theo Void
I do not own a PUSH. I was very excited when it was first announced and was set on getting one. Then, (as we all know) availability became a huge issue so rather than waiting what seemed to be a really long time, I pulled the trigger on a Maschine MK2 instead.

Long story short, the Maschine is an amazing, well thought out, well implemented and finished piece of kit. It has changed my work-flow for the better in too many ways to mention. A truly amazing instrument. And, that's all I'll say about it. I know how sensitive everyone gets here when Maschine comes up. This is not a humnumb post.

Anyway, I was still very interested in getting a PUSH. It looks amazing and as always, the marketing has done me in. But after reading through this Push forum it seems that Push is an un-finished, half-assed attempt at a wonderful idea. NO-ONE seems to be satisfied. There's the white LED issue, the shitty browser, the auto-mapped (or lack of) knobs, knob placement, screen issues, and on and on. I've read at least 5 threads of people who are trying to find any reason not to return it.

I realize that people will defend a product that they've purchased to the death just because they've invested $$ and admitting you're wrong is something many humans struggle with. EGO. But honestly, at THIS point in time, is the PUSH worth buying? I don't want to hear that "this or that will be fixed in future firm ware up-dates", or "you just have to make a rack and then you can browse things other than pre-sets", or "hopefully the browser will be fixed".

Reading through the forum it's like people really want to love this instrument and I truly understand. They'll make excuses for it and say things like, "it's really a soft-ware flaw, not PUSH's fault", or "it's just a little work-around, it's not a big deal, really!" It's

Right NOW, are you happy w/ your purchase?

Do you find yourself adopting a new and exciting work-flow based on Push or are you pain-stakingly trying to implement it and just getting frustrated?

Or does your Push sit un-used except for the occasional jam in scales mode that you'll NEVER use in an actual track?

Thanx for your in-put.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:18 pm
by panten
YEEEAAHH BOIII!!! I'm lovin it. Completely changes my experience of Live, for the good. It's more versatile than I thought it was going to be and I don't regret grabbing one for an instant.

My favourite new workflow enhancer during the creation process is making variations of a rhythmic loop using the Loop navigation pads in drumRack mode (instead of making new clips) It feels neater and it's real easy to chop between your variations in real-time to 'perform' what you've written. This is before you've even installed PXT-Live which by the way is just peachy.
Chopping your loops in real time with PXT-Live is just so much fun and I've found myself getting some unexpectedly syncopated rhythms that I wouldn't ordinarily get with traditional 'straight ahead' methods.

One bone of contention I may have with your (intentionally inflammatory?) post is the flippant remark about occasional jamming in scales mode. Don't underestimate this, it is the one major advantage over using the traditional 16 pad layout. Drumming, and jamming, and chopping all from the one piece of hardware is a joy.

In all honesty I've not been experiencing any of the major issues with the pads that others seem to be. Maybe I was one of the lucky ones but judging from posts on Maschine forums etc there are always going to be some hardware faults.

There are a ton of things that are missing from the Push workflow. That amazes me. I have no idea what Ableton are cooking up behind the scenes but there's one thing I'm certain of.. Hire Stray and he will fix it, as long as they sort out that horribly hobbled API.

It's funny but I've always thought that it was the other way around. Maschine fanboys seem to love lighting a fire under an innocent discussion that is contentedly trundling along, fan the flames for a bit then stand back with an air of smugness on their horrible little faces :)

We all get it; Maschine is AMAZING, but why rub it in everyone's face all the time. (not a personal attack by the way)
--Whatever happened to that humnumb guy? Not that I'm complaining however as it was starting to feel a bit like groundhog day around here. Probably got fired from NI payroll for being too damn obvious.

I had a feeling that I may get a Maschine at some point but the more I practice with Push and PXT the more fluent I feel with laying things down then just getting into the zone performing it and recording my jams to the arrangement view.

Good Times

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:54 pm
by ezelkow1
Im definitely still happy with mine. Not sure what complaints your looking at in the forums though, the only ones Ive really seen are the white led's, and some browsing issues. The only other one that pops up is pad sensitivity and that seems to be from people not changing their sensitivity settings. Theres lots of nice to haves floating around the forums and workflow/script improvement suggestions, but I dont see any of those as completely necessary. Thats also a good thing though, push is easily upgradeable/updatable feature wise, like panten said just look at how quick the pxt-live stuff came out with its huge feature set thats completely different from the stock set.

Keep in mind that is also what a forum attracts, the negative, because people are trying to get satisfaction with an issue they have. Your not going to see a ton of posts/threads stating 'I LOVE PUSH!!!!!111!!!'

Anyways, push is really the only midi controller I use anymore. My axiom pro sits turned off most of the time off to the side. Push fits perfectly on the desk next to the kb/m and with the 20$ stand posted in the other thread its at the perfect height too. Just being able to easily do drums, regular sequences, and then record in automation and tweak parameters easily is awesome. As someone who's not big on piano playing, so I have no real preference on input type, I dont really see myself going back to use a regular piano midi controller any time soon.

Many times I still use kb/m but thats just because its my default working mode. The few times Ive just picked up the push, put it on my lap and sat back, I had a blast with it. The only thing that makes it tough is sound design, but thats how it would be with any controller of this sort, an easier way to browse vst presets would be nice, but of course that is completely not up to ableton or push and is dependent on the vst. However it is still my main input method for drums and sequences even when in kb/m mode and of course to tweak multiple parameters at once

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:55 pm
by Theo Void
I can see how my post could be construed as inflammatory," it was not my intention. I guess I just suffer from the ironic, cynical and detached attitude that has become our generations world-view. Also, I couldn't help but mention Maschine because it and Push are so often compared and I was hoping that Push would be more of a mouse-free, complete Ableton controller.

I've been using Live since 2008 and I absolutely couldn't imagine life w/o it. It's my go-to for everything music related and it's grown to be an extension of my mind over the years. I own both an APC-40 and a Launchpad and have used Stray's scripts. LPC is literally one of the best things that has ever happened to me! I agree, Ableton need this guy on their payroll, like NOW! I'm sure whatever he has done w/ the Push is nothing short of incredible. In-fact, I probably end up buying Push for this reason alone.

I promise I was not trying to rub Maschine in anyone's face or minimize Push's usefulness. Quite the contrary, I am looking for validation and ANY reason at all to buy one. That's why I spent the morning trawling through the Push forum and to say it was bleak would be an understatement. These are real life user's experiencing issues, not marketing magic. I already fell for the marketing, I'm in like flynn. If it weren't for the un-availability of Push I'd have never even gotten a Maschine and I'd be happily jamming out on my Push as we speak.

As it stands though, I was not willing to wait until the seasons change to get a new controller. I was in the market and I wanted something NOW! So I bought a MAschine and was/is immensely pleased. great as Maschine is, it is not a complete DAW (yet?) Ableton is where I excel and it is my #1 choice for music making. I just really wanted Push to be revolutionary. I wanted it to be the PERFECT Live controller. I wanted it to be an instrument. I wanted it to be the extension of my body to compliment the extension of my mind that is Live. As I read, though, sadly it falls quite short.

All that said^^ I am still going to get one and then I'm going to buy Stray's PXT and I'm going to wait for Ableton to finish what they started.
It's a beautiful piece of kit, I just want it to be as useful as it is beautiful.

My question is simply: How are you getting on w/ Push?
Is it revolutionary?
Does it fall short?
Has it changed the way you make music in a positive way or are you struggling to fit it into your work-flow only to become frustrated?
Does it sit un-touched on your desk while you toil away w/ your mouse and feel guilty for not using it?
Are you thinking about returning it and using that $600.00 for something more practical?
Are you holding out waiting for Ableton to fix it w/ updates?

I'm just looking for real life users' experience.


Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:44 pm
by neuromodulator
I think it's amazing, but I'm using a complicated setup heavy on max4live set control - which is what I bought it for. This is NOT a matter of it not being complete but of my Live set being super complicated. I think it's solid and well-constructed and thought-out, and I personally view the white LEDs not all being consistent as a ridiculous complaint.

I think the default functionality is very well designed, and find myself using more of it than I expected and interfacing with my instruments through it in unexpected ways. I will say that I never use the browser so I can't comment on that issue.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:22 pm
by sowhoso
Theo Void wrote:Push is an un-finished, half-assed attempt at a wonderful idea.
Maschine was an un-finished, half-assed attempt at a wonderful idea when it first came out. there's been a lot of development since

so wait awhile for Push

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:14 pm
by SuburbanThug
It's like a Launchpad Super Deluxe.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:32 pm
by Theo Void
SuburbanThug wrote:It's like a Launchpad Super Deluxe.
Yeah!!!!!!!! I would've honestly been ecstatic about a launchpad w/ RGB !!!! And maybe 8 knobs. That would be lovely!

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:39 pm
by SuburbanThug
Like I said, that's what it is. A Launchpad with 8 knobs, touch sensitivity, integration with Drum Racks, dedicated transport controls, browsing, locked scales, a touch strip, and a bunch of other nice little buttons to speed up your workflow. What would be amazing is if you could somehow program the scales to recognize what you are playing and offer the available accidentals. Might be a little confusing to play though. It is an instrument though.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:57 pm
by Theo Void
I am most definitely buying one as soon as I can. if they would just get on point w/ getting them made I'd be all over it right now but I'll just wait til they're in stock somewhere instead of pre-ordering and then having zero clue when it will actually arrive.

I am not talking shit on Push in any way. I'm just relaying what I've been reading in the forums about it. I'm sure it will develop into the most expressive Ableton controller ever.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:46 am
by Citizen
I've got Push - and I'm kind of torn with it. I may even sell it....maybe.

On one hand, jamming scales on the pads is crazy fun, and I'm coming up with things I simply would not have any other way. That alone is almost worth the price of admission alone. :D

On the other hand...

... I personally find the workflow a little clunky - and would rather jam initial ideas on my Maschine. :roll: (and yes, I realise that I've spent much more time on Maschine than Push)

Frankly, the browsing debacle is the real nail in the coffin for Push. If they can get that sorted out, and fluid, I think it would be awesome. :)

I'm sure once they take stock of all the user input from us, they can make it what it should be. time will tell.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:03 am
by boboter
I think push is incredible. Never had so much fun with Ableton before. I come from mainly using hardware gear and this is the first time that a computer comes close to that workflow. Granted, I spent a lot of time preparing and setting up my standard live set so it perfectly compliments push. And I guess that's what is key when using it. If you just start with a blank set, you will have to use the mouse a lot if you don't want to just play around with presets. But I mapped all my VSTis and made racks for all my fx plugins, set up pretty complicated drum racks and what not. Now I have a very complex and versatile set ready to go when I launch Ableton. I can program drums and create sounds from scratch in no time, record stuff and even mix it later on. The mouse is just used for moving around clips and such. Basically, purposes a mouse is better suited for anyway.

I've been using Ableton for about 10 years now and always hoped for such a device. Of course I got some feature wishes, too. But push as it is right now, is the best thing that ever happened to my computer based music making.

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:04 am
by Citizen
Not trying to stir things up, but those that sing Push's praises the strongest, seem to be consistently those who have not experienced the Maschine workflow.

Just an observation, thats all.

(for what its worth, as a DAW, Maschine is a joke - but for getting ideas down quick in a hands-on manner, I think its unparalleled)

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:22 am
by Theo Void
Citizen wrote:Not trying to stir things up, but those that sing Push's praises the strongest, seem to be consistently those who have not experienced the Maschine workflow.

Just an observation, thats all.

(for what its worth, as a DAW, Maschine is a joke - but for getting ideas down quick in a hands-on manner, I think its unparalleled)
I totally agree with you on all this!!

Re: Poor PUSH

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:27 am
by boboter
Citizen wrote:Not trying to stir things up, but those that sing Push's praises the strongest, seem to be consistently those who have not experienced the Maschine workflow.

Just an observation, thats all.

(for what its worth, as a DAW, Maschine is a joke - but for getting ideas down quick in a hands-on manner, I think its unparalleled)
^ I did buy machine when it came out. It's nice but not that useful for how I work. I was never one for the 4x4 pad devices. Not trying to argue on this, for me it simply isn't about those two devices. I wanted a controller for ableton live, nothing else. Just wanted to chip in that I'm really satisfied with push since the OT was asking about some user feedback.