Your Push Experience

Come here to discuss Push with other users.
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robinez
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by robinez » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:03 pm

sowhoso wrote:nice work!

i don't see any color variation in that video. i think you are one of the lucky few

:)
thanks,

to be honest, my push also has the color variation, about the half of the pads has a purple glow to them. Now the strange part of it is that it's only noticeable on my push when it's dark in the studio. This video was recorded with daylight and then it's more difficult to see how the pads have white color variations.

But if you look closely in my video when i change to note mode and you pause the video then you can see that not all pads are equally white. But since it's not that noticeable i'm guessing that i indeed was lucky :)
My latest push demo on youtube: Try Out Live Set Trance Classics

Buleriachk
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by Buleriachk » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:02 pm

I am returning Push; the colors on the pads were borderline, but the LED"s at the sides were unreadable, even with the unit plugged in. But the more I use it, the more I realize that it is a production tool at heart (think tweaking devices)

(The reason I wanted to try it was my APC40 lost a couple of faders, so I was thinking of it as a replacement, and was willing to spend the big bucks if it made sense to do so.....)

The scales can be just as easily accessed from Launchpad 95, but the inability to switch instantly from (e.g.) Major to natural/Harmonic/melodic minor or easily modulate around the Circle of Fifths in real time (compared to the use of black keys if one is familiar with the conventional keyboard.

That said, one may not need that functionality, so that's a personal issue depending on the work you're doing. I doubt that the musicians at a Greek Festival would be comfortable with Push, though...

I have a message on the board to Stray at Native Kontrol describing my musical issues:

http://beatwise.proboards.com/index.cgi ... hread=1448

The Push is a huge advancement in sound design and music production (I think) and has the potential of all the tweakability one could need for TV, Film, and video game music production. But live music venues have been disappearing fast, and Push is really not made for regular Sat night gigs at coffee houses...

But for me, L95, Live Suite 9, Maschine, and my trusty mouse and keyboard is all I need at present. But I will be closely monitoring this forum and Ableton, and will jump in again as soon as these issues are addressed.

robinez
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by robinez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:36 am

Buleriachk wrote:The scales can be just as easily accessed from Launchpad 95, but the inability to switch instantly from (e.g.) Major to natural/Harmonic/melodic minor or easily modulate around the Circle of Fifths in real time (compared to the use of black keys if one is familiar with the conventional keyboard.

That said, one may not need that functionality, so that's a personal issue depending on the work you're doing.
true, it's a personal issue. But if you still have the push i would advise you to try what i did. I think you have some theoretical knowledge of scales based on the things you are saying, in that case you could approach the pad scales quite differently.

Just use the pads in Chromatic mode (fixed key off) and quickly set your rootkey. I do it this way now and what you get is the pad approach to conventional piano keyboard playing. The rootnote is important because it gives you a visual confirmation of where your rootkey starts on the pads.

Now whenever you want to play you can just easely modulate around scales like harmonic, major, lydian, melodic or circle around the Fifths based on your rootkey. It takes only a small time to get used to the pad layout that way and you have total control since you are knowing what you are doing. I really like to use the push that way, it's just like you have a conventional piano keyboard and you can enter any melody you want that way.

It's really powerful :)
My latest push demo on youtube: Try Out Live Set Trance Classics

sowhoso
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by sowhoso » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:31 am

Buleriachk

you seem to have an aversion to chromatic mode, why? that is the only solution to your wanting access to the occasional accidental

consider that if you return your Push you won't have all that other great functionality that no other controller can give you with Live

or did you only but Push to use the pads?

drez
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by drez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:46 pm

sowhoso wrote:Buleriachk

you seem to have an aversion to chromatic mode, why? that is the only solution to your wanting access to the occasional accidental

consider that if you return your Push you won't have all that other great functionality that no other controller can give you with Live

or did you only but Push to use the pads?
To add to that, I've noticed that I'm mostly just staying in chromatic mode. I don't want to keep figuring out what scale I'm in and then learn how to play in that scale on the push. IMO, its just as well to leave it in chromatic mode and learn to play the scale there. Then I know it without switching anything around. The only time I switch to a different scale is so that I might have a happy accident. Then I sequence it and move back to chromatic mode.

I just don't like having my options taken away from me on the pads. If I want to modulate, then I can. NO ONE CAN STOP ME! MUAAHAHAA! :x
:D
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MacBook Pro Retina Laptop, 2.7Ghz i7, 16Gig RAM, 500G SSD, Live 9, Push, Novation SL25 Mk2, iPad (TouchOSC, Lemur, Touch-Able), Reason

Buleriachk
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by Buleriachk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:11 pm

The whole point of scale (not chromatic) mode is to get a huge range of notes with just the right hand in a particular chord. The pad is only just slightly better than a conventional keyboard in chromatic mode (at least I can see the accidentals on it).

I returned my Push - actually, I am SURE it will be upgraded in the future, but for now my keyboard (for accidentals), Launchpad S/95, and Maschine Mk2 are sufficient, since I get Push equivalent scales on the L95 and almost everything else on Maschine....

I would like to see the two rows at the top configurable; Say major for the top row, minor for the bottom row, and arranged as the Circle of Fifths (with the ability to scroll using the arrow keys). Then one could assign (e.g.) C major and Am at the center, with the type of minor selectable (natural, harmonic, melodic). That would at least preserve the chord forms on the keypad, but would allow one to modulate between keys using secondary dominants as transition chords.

Of course, chromatic would still be available for passing notes that are not in the musical context of secondary dominants, but the above would cover a great many more of the possibilities.

That said, the colors on the white keypads were borderline, but the led's on the sides were unreadable, even when plugged in, and without the above, Live 9 with the Launchpad S/95, my conventional keyboard, Maschine (which is a good control surface for Live) (I also have a nanoKontrol with ME_nanoKontrol) is sufficient for what I do... Launchpad95 is very effective at duplicating Push's main functions for Note Mode....

Let me be clear; Ableton will eventually get it right, I'm sure. The concept is powerful. and for those without the equipment above, Push (the way it is now) is an excellent investment, since those that are uusing it now are on the learning curve of the future.

The bottom line; Push is a very, very powerful controller, and its expense is well worth the amortization for the learning curve in music. I don't need it since I already have the above, and I was just hoping the rows at the top would be user configurable - I'm sure they will be in the future, though....

deva
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by deva » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:35 pm

Buleriachk wrote:I was just hoping the rows at the top would be user configurable - I'm sure they will be in the future, though....
They are user configurable right now... But I understand you did not want to take the time to figure it out.

btw, the led's on the buttons were too faint for me as well... but having used it more they don't appear so now. It seems like they are brighter now (is that possible?) or I have just become used to them and my hand also knows which is which while hardly looking

Buleriachk
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by Buleriachk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:44 pm

User Configurable????

Can I set the top row to Major, the bottom row to Minor (natural, harmonic, or melodic), both scrollable from left to right in Circle of Fifths order? I didn't see it in in the manual.... and leave it set that way, with the tonic set at the selected key, and only have to touch the buttons in the row to change to the relative key/scale?

Or maybe you don't understand relative minor or Circle of Fifths.....

In any case, that's what I mean by configurable.... tell me how to do it, please....

And if not, the Launchpad S with Launchpad 95 is just as configurable (one button press for instantaneous access to everything - but you have to press again in three places for full selection - but actually easier than Push)
deva wrote: They are user configurable right now... But I understand you did not want to take the time to figure it out.

btw, the led's on the buttons were too faint for me as well... but having used it more they don't appear so now. It seems like they are brighter now (is that possible?) or I have just become used to them and my hand also knows which is which while hardly looking

deva
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by deva » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:14 pm

Buleriachk wrote:User Configurable????

Can I set the top row to Major, the bottom row to Minor (natural, harmonic, or melodic), both scrollable from left to right in Circle of Fifths order? I didn't see it in in the manual.... and leave it set that way, with the tonic set at the selected key, and only have to touch the buttons in the row to change to the relative key/scale?

Or maybe you don't understand relative minor or Circle of Fifths.....

In any case, that's what I mean by configurable.... tell me how to do it, please....
One would have to use user mode and edit the python scripts... but that is user configurable... like I said, understandable why you don't want to figure it out

Oh, also, for mono leads, I've been using the pitch control strip to play notes not in the scale

robinez
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by robinez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:17 pm

Buleriachk wrote:Can I set the top row to Major, the bottom row to Minor (natural, harmonic, or melodic), both scrollable from left to right in Circle of Fifths order? I didn't see it in in the manual.... and leave it set that way, with the tonic set at the selected key, and only have to touch the buttons in the row to change to the relative key/scale?

Or maybe you don't understand relative minor or Circle of Fifths.....
well I do understand scales and harmony theory, so your remarks got me thinking, did you really watch the scale functions on the push?

because you keep talking about the circle of fifths and that's how the scale system on the push is already setup and you have seemed to missed that, which makes me wonder if you really had one.

When you push the scale button on the push, the front row buttons are setup according to the right side of the circle of fifths, the bottom row buttons are setup like the left side of the circle of fifths.

With the first two buttons you can instantly change the scale. So in reality when you want to change from major to minor it's just one button press in the scale system or to any other scale (which you can also define yourself by modifying a python script, which is explained on one of the push user sites).

Let me be clear, I don't say that you have to use the push, if you don't like it, then I fully agree with your decision to return it, but you keep repeating yourself in several posts and your scale statements aren't really recognizable for push owners like me.
My latest push demo on youtube: Try Out Live Set Trance Classics

deva
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by deva » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:33 pm

robinez wrote: With the first two buttons you can instantly change the scale. So in reality when you want to change from major to minor it's just one button press in the scale system or to any other scale (which you can also define yourself by modifying a python script, which is explained on one of the push user sites).
Which user site?

Buleriachk
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by Buleriachk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:34 pm

No, it is a button press and then you have to scroll while watching the LED's while you do it.
And even then, you don't have an option for the V7 in Am....

Ok, tell me how to

1. Set the key of C major in the top row and Am below it in the second row.
(eg)
<---- Eb Bb C G D A E -->
<---- Gm Dm Am Em Bm FM Bm -->

etc, and be able to scroll both rows left and right......

And in any case, I shouldn't have to write a Python script for this functionality.

deva
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by deva » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:44 pm

Buleriachk wrote:No, it is a button press and then you have to scroll while watching the LED's while you do it.
And even then, you don't have an option for the V7 in Am....

Ok, tell me how to

1. Set the key of C major in the top row and Am below it in the second row.
(eg)
<---- Eb Bb C G D A E -->
<---- Gm Dm Am Em Bm FM Bm -->

etc, and be able to scroll both rows left and right......

And in any case, I shouldn't have to write a Python script for this functionality.
Editing python scripts are not hard... and there are helpful users who do the heavy lifting...

Buleriachk
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by Buleriachk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:57 pm

I already have a request in to Stray at NativeKontrol.
(I am doubtful it can be done easily, at least with Live's current Object Model... at least last time I looked)
because it involves configuring the LED readout relation to the buttons.....
but maybe it can be done

I am thinking (hoping) he is considering it.... :)

Ableton should hire him; he is one of the best....

But I'll keep an eye on the forum just in case...

At present (for me), Push is like a beautiful (and expensive) dog walking on its hind legs. It is not done very well (from a musical perspective), but it is entertaining, and I am delighted that it is done at all. Nevertheless, I'll stick to my tabby cat(s) with Live 9 for the time being....

In any case, it is GREAT to have Maschine, Launchpad, and a nanoKontrol (ME_nanoKontrol) with Live, because you can trigger accompaniment clips with Launchpad while playing melody/chords with Push (or vice versa), changing sounds live with Maschine, and controlling volume/solo, pan etc. with NK ... all simultaneously.... :)

(Well, ok, I forgot I don't have a Push any more, this for those of you who do.... :)

And I also have an Axiom Mini (for the minor V7 chords) ...

robinez
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Re: Your Push Experience

Post by robinez » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:59 pm

Buleriachk wrote:No, it is a button press and then you have to scroll while watching the LED's while you do it.
And even then, you don't have an option for the V7 in Am....

Ok, tell me how to

1. Set the key of C major in the top row and Am below it in the second row.
(eg)
<---- Eb Bb C G D A E -->
<---- Gm Dm Am Em Bm FM Bm -->

etc, and be able to scroll both rows left and right......

And in any case, I shouldn't have to write a Python script for this functionality.
using secondary dominants is absolutely no issue when you activate the chromatic mode, I could instantly play that chord on the pads. Even better since the V7 is outside the original theoretical scale I had a visually confirmation on my push, I knew of course that it isn't in the scale so it was really easy to push the unlit button since I had the visual confirmation on the screen of the scale.

Scrolling through the circle of fifths on a row makes absolutely no sense, since every button is already set up that way.

I still have my doubts if you really used a push based on the strange comments you make about how the scale system works on a push, but ok, I believe you that you have. In that case maybe playing scales through the buttons is just something that's not really your style. I can understand that, because when I played the push for the first time I had a hard time to transfer my way of thinking playing scales on the piano to the way you have to play on the pads. It took me a few hours of practice to play any riff I had in mind on the push (including tweaking of the sensitivity of the pads).

I'm not trying to defend the push, there are things that can use improvement, but I simply disagree with your comments about the scale system.
My latest push demo on youtube: Try Out Live Set Trance Classics

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