Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

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Valiumdupeuple
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Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 pm

Hi.
I'm getting quite interested in Push, but I need to know something (I don't have one).
I know that with m4l, we can "grab" encoders/buttons/pads in the normal mode (I mean not in user mode), in order to use it for a custom function.
But, from what I've read about the Push Development Kit from Florianzand, we can only grab it if either the track or the device is selected. (I maybe didn't understood everything).
- I want to know if it's possible to a re-assignement that would always be active (until I manually stop it), regardless of where the m4L device is ?
- Is it possible to grab controls from an audio track ?

The idea is that, I'd love to use Push as it in Session (I'd need little m4l tweeks, but that's details). But I'd also need to use it in a very custom way in Arrangement. I know there is PXT Live, but I need... customisation, and I know max but not python.
Speaking of Arrangement : for the moment I use a Maschine as a control surface. Simple but fucking useful things like controlling the zoom from an encoder, having a button to collapse/uncollapse tracks, actions on the selected track, and various things like that.
I'm doing it with a m4l device which is on my master track, the patch actually is kind of a "master" patch (it also has a session mode).
The beautiful things is that I can only do that thanks to lh_midiin, an external that allows to grab midi from a device "before" it passes through Live's midi. i.e grabbing midi data directly from a midi port.
I'm not sure of how clear my explanation is because of my english, but a simple example will make this clear:
- I use an encoder to control the zoom in arrangement. I can do it this way (actually not, but... it's coming). I use a live.dial to control the zoom function, I map this live.dial to an encoder. Ok, it works. But if I zoom in/out during a recording, what will happen ?? Yep, the live.dial movement will be recorded as an automation, and it will mess up everything, right ! This is not what I want.
So, what I have to do is ... grab the encoders data "before it passes through Live's midi." And I do this with lh_midiin, which is like the midi in object, but more powerful, as it can access directly from a midi port. That also means that you can access midi from an audio device, and that's why it's easy to have a "master Set patch" controlled by midi from the Master Track.

I would need to be able to do the same with Push. Is it possible ?
I hope all this shit I've just wrote is understandable.

Thx
J.

neuromodulator
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:05 am

Re: Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

Post by neuromodulator » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:56 pm

So I think there are some minor translation issues but I'll do my best. If it sounds like I've misunderstood something, feel free to clarify - vous pouvez essayer en francais, aussi, mais mon francais est mauvais.

Yes, you can permanently reassign buttons. I've permanently reassigned the "add effect" and "add track" buttons, and I do regularly grab the "track state" buttons, the display, and the encoders. You should be able to grab almost anything, including audio track controls, via max for live. The only uncertain thing from my point of view is that I can speak to grabbing part of a set of controls - for instance, I grab all eight encoders and the top three rows of the display (each row is a unique item). I don't know what would happen if you only wanted to grab the first encoder, but leave the rest in default functionality.

As for the zoom function, I think if you look at a live.dial in the inspector you can choose to exclude it from automation, which might prevent the move from being recorded.

I'll try and run you through an example of what I'm doing, which might answer your question. I have remapped the "add effect" button to take control of the eight encoders, the top three rows of the display, and the track state buttons. The track state buttons become mode selectors for the encoders, so I have eight pages of eight knobs each. The display shows the name of the parameter on the first row, the visual representation of the parameter on the second row, and the numerical value of the parameter on the third row. The fourth row still shows track titles (default functionality in track mode), because I'm not grabbing the track selector buttons. So I can still select tracks and play the button matrix for the selected tracks, but I'm controlling devices on my return tracks, and mixer devices on other tracks, via my encoder remapping. And then tapping "add effect" again releases it all back to normal.

Valiumdupeuple
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Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 12:36 pm
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Re: Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

Post by Valiumdupeuple » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:39 pm

Hey, thanks mate ! That's a lot of nice informations.

- So, you mean that you can access Push in any kind of the devices (I mean, even within an m4l audio effect) ? No need to have it on a midi track with Push selected as the midi input, right ?

- Just to clarify my zoom example (it didn't pick the best one, but...)
If your patch is on a midi track, no problem, you don't even need a live.dial as you can pick your encoder midi data from the track and then through a midiin object, and finally connect it to your zoom function. Great, no problem.
But, if like what I'm doing with my Maschine, you need to have your patch on an audio track, the only solution (not with Push apparently) should be to midi-map your encoder to a live.dial on the patch. If you exclude automation in its inspector, then you can't midimap it...
Though, it's not really the only solution, and it is not a solution actually. The only solution is to use lh_midi externals. That's how I do.

Basically what I would need to be able to do is grab some controllers to work in arrangement :
- Using the tempo (or swing) encoder to zoom
- Using the top 8 encoders for sample/loop start/end control, volume and transposition of the selected clip.
- Using some of the pads or buttons for mute/solo/arm/collapse of the selected track.
- Using some of the pads or buttons for focusing on different parts of Live's interface, and for shortcuts. Plus transport control.

- While still being able to simply switch from this to the default playing mode and/or device parameters control.

That's, in short, how I use Maschine in Arrangement, and it works great (I even have parameters name feedback by mixing my m4l patch with mackie emulation). If I can do this with Push, then I'll also have all other things that it does by default.

Thx for your input btw.
J.

Because789
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:26 pm

Re: Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

Post by Because789 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:21 am

Valiumdupeuple wrote:- So, you mean that you can access Push in any kind of the devices (I mean, even within an m4l audio effect) ? No need to have it on a midi track with Push selected as the midi input, right ?
That's right. They implemented a nice method for Push, from the LOM:

"grab_control: Releases all L9C functionality from the control so that it can be used exclusively via the LiveAPI."

So, the only things that will happen in Live are the ones you define in your m4l device. If you got everything working for Maschine it should be possible to adapt it for Push.
Valiumdupeuple wrote:But, from what I've read about the Push Development Kit from Florianzand, we can only grab it if either the track or the device is selected. (I maybe didn't understood everything).
This is a misunderstanding, that was just the way Florian decided to implement it. Using button combinations is for some task a better idea and it's perfectly possible (check out Safen Push Performance for an example). Only problem is to decide what combination you use...
Live 9.5 (64bit), Max 7.0.6, Windows 10, Push 2, Korg electribe2, Bass Station II, Launch Control XL, Faderfox DJ3

M4L


Jeffromusic
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:36 am

Re: Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

Post by Jeffromusic » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:11 pm

neuromodulator wrote:So I think there are some minor translation issues but I'll do my best. If it sounds like I've misunderstood something, feel free to clarify - vous pouvez essayer en francais, aussi, mais mon francais est mauvais.

Yes, you can permanently reassign buttons. I've permanently reassigned the "add effect" and "add track" buttons, and I do regularly grab the "track state" buttons, the display, and the encoders. You should be able to grab almost anything, including audio track controls, via max for live. The only uncertain thing from my point of view is that I can speak to grabbing part of a set of controls - for instance, I grab all eight encoders and the top three rows of the display (each row is a unique item). I don't know what would happen if you only wanted to grab the first encoder, but leave the rest in default functionality.

As for the zoom function, I think if you look at a live.dial in the inspector you can choose to exclude it from automation, which might prevent the move from being recorded.

I'll try and run you through an example of what I'm doing, which might answer your question. I have remapped the "add effect" button to take control of the eight encoders, the top three rows of the display, and the track state buttons. The track state buttons become mode selectors for the encoders, so I have eight pages of eight knobs each. The display shows the name of the parameter on the first row, the visual representation of the parameter on the second row, and the numerical value of the parameter on the third row. The fourth row still shows track titles (default functionality in track mode), because I'm not grabbing the track selector buttons. So I can still select tracks and play the button matrix for the selected tracks, but I'm controlling devices on my return tracks, and mixer devices on other tracks, via my encoder remapping. And then tapping "add effect" again releases it all back to normal.
Is there any way you can upload this patch for the max-illiterate?? I've been waiting to use something like this...

neuromodulator
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:05 am

Re: Technical questions for m4l + Push experts

Post by neuromodulator » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:22 pm

Sorry, it's totally not universal, and would be completely useless to the max-illiterate. Completely useless for anyone who isn't me, really.

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