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 Post subject: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:33 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
(Note: to see the relevance of this to Push, viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202209)

I've been trying the various scales on Push, and looking them up in Wikipedia, and as far as Flamenco is concerned, I have never read so much bullshit in my life, particularly how jazz/classical musicians seem to think the scales they are familiar with are related to Flamenco, particularly the so-called "Spanish" and "Gypsy Minor" scales as referenced on Push.

Here chord movement (tension/resolution, "question/answer") is a key factor in determining the relevance of chord progressions. For major and (Harmonic) minor scales, the dominant->tonic relation (e.g. G->C,E->Am) is the most important, followed by the sub-dominant->tonic (e.g. F->C, Dm->Am)

The dominant 7th intensifies the dominant -> tonic progression (G7->C, E7->Am).

Flamenco uses three distinct scales; Major, Harmonic Minor and (most importantly) Phrygian Mode* = ("Gypsy Minor"), often all three relative scales in the same key, a "Phrygian "Mode related to the Major and Harmonic minor in a given key signature depending on context.

(Context: if E Phrygian Mode in the following has a G#, I will refer to it as the E* Phrygian Mode)

It is true that one of the important modifications that Flamenco makes to the E* Phrygian mode is to change the G to a G#. This is done for two reasons:

1. The "Tonic" for Flamenco Phrygian is E (NOT Em) in this context; that is, the most important resolution is from F->E, a half-step, which makes this progression of primary importance for Flamenco.
2. The E chord is also a transition to the relative minor Tonic (Am) in the progression E->Am, or better yet, E7->Am, where the 7th is a passing note. (Similar as G7 to C in the related major.

The Em chord is NEVER played in this context, because it would destroy those resolutions and transitions in the "question"->"Answer" (dominant->tonic) relationship.

So for Flamenco in "E* Phrygian", there are really only two distinct scales; Major, and Harmonic Minor; the E simply switches the resolution from E -> Am ("Classical" music) to F -> E ("Flamenco").

Other chord substitutions within these related keys are used: Am -> -> G -> F -> E is the "Andalusian Cadence", and uses both G (G chord) and G# (E chord) notes in the progression.

Obviously progressions such as Dm ->Am -> F -> E and G7 -> C -> F -> E are also used, if one is aware of the uses of dominant and subdominant before resolving from F -> E.

(Dm -> Am -> E7 -> Am (Harmonic Minor)
ii -> vi -> III7 -> vi (if related to C major)
iv -> i -> V7 -> i (if diatonic Harmonic Minor)

(F -> C -> G7 -> C) (Major)
IV -> I -> V7 -> I

The Bdim triad is used as a substitute for the dominant 7th in Major and Harmonic Minor, since:

(B,D,F) + G suggests G7 chord (Major) and
(B,D,F) + G# suggest E7 chord (Harmonic Minor)

---------------------------------------
The other accidentals in the scale (when used) often come from secondary dominants in the same E tonal center:

A7->Dm, (C->C#)
D7->G (F->F#)
C7->F (B->Bb)

In addition, the F7 is sometime used as a substitution for F this is the "Bhairav" scale in the key relative to E* (so you can play an F7->E progression if you program a ClyphX clip), where the D# serves as a "passing note"; and is sometime emphasized in melody for a "Blues" flavor, similar to the use of the "turnaround" (C7->B7)->E for Blues in E Major/Minor.... the Ab in C7 is the "Blues note: in the progression....

(Sometimes called "passing" notes/chords, since they pass to chords within the key, or can be used as "pivot" chords to change key...... (e.g., from C major to F major in the first and third examples above, from C Major to G in the second, and the progression (F7->Bb) -> A) to A Phrygian ....

Sometimes the "Melodic Minor" is used as a passing sequence to Am in the Harmonic Minor/"E Phrygian" contexts (replacing the F with an F# when the melody is rising in pitch from E(7) to A(m) ....

(e.g., the sequence of notes E->F#->G#->A, instead of E->F->G#->A), which reduces the interval between F->G# to F#->G# be more "melodic" as a melodic progression).

(In this context, one can consider the E7 in the progression E7->Am as a "secondary dominant" relative to
C Major, since it substitutes the accidental G# for G in that scale). Again, in traditional Flamenco, the Em chord would never be used in the related scales of E*, Am, and "Phrygian Mode".

Camaron de la Isla emphasized these accidentals in his cante (MUCH more than other singers, particular in Bulerias/Solea/etc.), which was responsible for his signature interpretations. However, for guitar these are heard quite often, especially starting with Sabicas, but all of them used them occasionally; they are part of the tradition.

But the MOST important progression is the IV->III progression (F -> E) (if using roman numerals related to the diatonic characterization of Western music.

======================================================================================

The "Gypsy Minor" scale is actually the Flamenco Phrygian scale with G#, and is used for E and Bdim (Minor context) chords. However, it REALLY is the scale that expresses the dominant 7th chord (V) chord, where its root is the 5th of the major/minor scale in context..


So in the context of C major, the "Gypsy Minor" scale with root at G is really the dominant 7th chord of C Major, and in the context of Am, the "Gypsy Minor" scale with root at E is really the dominant 7th chord of A Harmonic Minor.

The classical "Phrygian" mode is the Phrygian scale with E natural, and is used for the C, G,G7 and Bdim (Major context) chords.

Either scale can be used with F,Am,Dm

I don't know what the hell the "Spanish" scale has to do with flamenco (it adds a G#, adds a Bb, and omits the B. E,F,G,G#,A,Bb,C,D,E
WTF?

------------------------------
From a guitar perspective:

These concepts are transposed around the top of the Circle of Fifths for the various palos of Flamenco (e.g., Granadinas is in "B* Phrygian, Taranto is in F#* "Phrygian",many palos in "A* Phrygian" as well as "E* Phrygian" etc. This is because these keys use most of the open strings on the guitar as components of the basic chords.... E* and A* are particularly important, because the basic forms are "power chords" on the bass strings at the open (capoed) position (omit the 3rds), and thus are more powerful for rhythm accompaniment..

I discuss this in detail in the following document on my Website:

http://www.flamencochuck.com/files/Musi ... Theory.pdf

(More extensive discussion in my guitar courses which now are available at no cost on my site).

(There is a difference in conceptual orientation between "harmonizing a melody" and "playing to a chord progression" (chord chart))

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Scales, chords, and Push:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202364


Last edited by Buleriachk on Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flamenco "scales" and Push
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
I looked up the "Spanish Scale" in Wikipedia, and it is a confused attempt by those musicians that try to force all scales into a diatonic shoebox, rather than realizing that E Phrygian and E (as the dominant to Am) are really the same thing, but with different resolutions.

I will designate the Phrygian Mode in E with G# by the notation E*

The two examples given in Wikipedia are

1. "Have Nagila", which can be accompanied completely in A Harmonic Minor, if one just considers resolving to E occasionally instead of Am (which gives an unresolved feeling at the end as a segue into the next verse (so is confusing as to what the "tonic" is). The first three accompaniments I looked up used only Am, E(7) and Dm. It doesn't even use G in the melody.

Duh!

2. "Miserlou" This is even simpler, and uses F -> E as its accompaniment; the most basic transition in Flamenco.

The "Spanish" scale gives the notes E,F,G,and G#, the first four notes (the E* Phrygian Mode), and A,Bb,C,D for the last four (the A* Phrygian mode; key of F, Dm) All the chord forms of the C, Am, E* are changed in this matrix on Push). I can't imagine what this scale would be used for, unless one wanted to shift back and forth between E* and A* melodically for some weird reason.. but maybe someone can make a living at it someday.... somewhere....

The confusion disappears if one simply accepts that there are three possible tension->resolution phrases (i.e., harmonic progressions) possible in the relations between C, Am, and "E" Phrygian where E is a major chord, and is the dominant to Am... (which requires the accidental G#).

So - within the same key signature, the resolutions are:

G7 -> C (requires G) (C Major)
E7 -> Am (requires G#) (A minor)
F -> E* (requires G#) (E* Phrygian - Em is NEVER used in this context - well, ok, maybe somebody does, but by mistake or ignorance .... :)

These relations are consistent with almost all the Flamenco, Greek, and Middle Eastern music (except for that with quarter steps or micro-tones - and even then, the latter is often used as embellishments or passing tones to the core progressions above....)

Any other interpretation is making an intellectual mountain out of a molehill.

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Scales, chords, and Push:
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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:46 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Power Chords -

One can avoid the issue of major and minor (and the whole issue of V7->I) by omitting the third of the chord, so only playing the root and the fifth (e.g., E,B,E) for E (often using only three notes). The progression then becomes a thickened power progression on melodic notes; this is often used in rock in conjunction with distortion/fuzz which gives a very strong (if not very subtle) "harmonic" progression for the electric guitar and, of course, Flamenco.

Furthermore, these triads are very convenient to voice on the guitar as well as on the Push matrix.

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

==================================================================================
UPDATE: This may have been broken in Live 9.1.2, so if you do this, you might want to keep your Live 9.1.1 around.

That said, I had been using Julian Bayle's decompiled version of the .pyc file; however, I found a good decompiler:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/easypythondecompiler/

I was then able to decompile the 9.1.2 Midi Remote script from the installation and add the modifications I had made to my 9.1.1 script, applied the procedure below, and it worked just fine; I now have my scales and ordering back again.
===================================================================================

It is possible to create/edit/rename/reorder the scales in Push.
There are two files involved; both should reside in the Midi Remote Script/Push folder
The file that is originally installed with Push is called "consts.pyc"
BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE BACK UP THIS FILE TO A SAFE LOCATION ON YOUR HARD DRIVE!
(You can also restore by re-installing Live, but.....)

1. "consts.pyc" is the compiled file that Ableton Live loads on startup, and actually communicates with Push.
2. "consts.py" is the Python script source file that you download and edit; when saved and Ableton is restarted, if all goes well Live will recompile this file to a new "consts.pyc" file. If it doesn't compile (and you have deleted the previous "consts.pyc" file, Push will remain dark after rebooting,.

(sometimes all you need to do is disable/re-enable Push in Preferences/Midi; I have found that Live can be finicky about triggering the recompile process, but have always managed to get it to work so far after deleting, re-saving, restarting, rebooting - sometimes who knows?)

To do this,

1. download a python editor (free) from the internet and install it. I used Notpad++ :

http://notepad-plus-plus.org/

and set the Language preference to "Python".

2. download the "consts.py" source script from the Push folder at:

https://github.com/gluon/AbletonLive9_RemoteScripts

3. Back up the Push folder in "Midi Remote Scripts" on your computer, and then copy the "consts.py" file into the Push folder.

4. Open the "consts.py" file in Notepad++ and you should see the scale list.

(Note - you should edit this file in place - I tried editing it outside the folder and copying it back in, and ran into difficulties (I think naming issues, but not sure). You avoid issues if you edit the file within the folder).

5. Copy/Rename/Reorder/Create scales in the list, making sure the format is correct for each entery,.
6. When finished, save the file and exit Notepad++
7. Delete the "consts.pyc" file in the Push folder in Midi Remote Scripts (Remember - it is backed up, RIGHT?)
8. Exit Live if it is running and restart.
9. Go into the Midi Tab in Preferences, and check if the Push I/O entries are disabled; if they are, then enable them. (If they are enabled, the Live might have

recompiled the script ("consts.py" -> "consts.pyc") when you restarted; otherwise enabling them should trigger Live to recomple them. You can check the Push

folder in Remote Scripts to see if there is a new "consts.pyc" file in addition to the "consts.py" file that you edited.
10. Check your Push, and the layout of the scales should reflect your changes.
11. (Note) The Python clip names will work with the new names you gave to your scale definitions.
===============================================================================

For example, for my purposes:

1. copied "Minor Gypsy" scale to the top of the list and renamed it to "* Flamenco"
2. copied the "Phrygian Mode" to the second slot and renamed it "* Phrygian"

(* represents that the scales are related to whatever key I choose; The following are related to * = E)
This allows me to use the E Major chord for Flamenco Phrygian and related Harmonic Minor (the root indicator represents *), and to switch to Phrygian to play G

and C Major chords (and related Major)..


3. Created different scales to switch to Secondary Dominants as necessary (named and ordered by the way I use them (relative to the "* Flamenco" and "* Phygian"
scales)

Secondary Progression (Name)/Original Scale/Note Changed/Note Intervals
"* F7->E" "* Flamenco" D->D# 0,1,4,5,7,8,11
"* A7->Dm" "* Flamenco" C->C# 0,1,4,5,7,9,10
"* C7->F" "* Flamenco" B->Bb(A#) 0,1,3,5,6,8,10
"* Flamenco"
"* Phrygian"
"* D7->G" "* Phrygian" F->F# 0,2,3,5,7,8,10

I also re-ordered the Major and Minor scales in the list to switch easily:
Major
Harmonic Minor
Melodic Minor
Dorian
(etc.)

(the notes of the Natural Minor (i.e., the Aeolian Mode - e.g. "A" ) are included in the related Major scale - e.g. "C")
===============================================================================================================
These are just my preferences at this point in my very early attempt to set up Push more generally.
I also have created Clips in my "ClyphX" track to reflect the new scales. You can change the Scale Root (pitch/key) in separate ClyphX" clips....

_________________
http://www.flamencochuck.com
Scales, chords, and Push:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202364


Last edited by Buleriachk on Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:46 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
My next step is to try to set up the Push matrix with the Launchpad as a Chord Rack, (since a chord is just a small scale), using ClyphX to set the root of the chord and select it).

(I wish Ableton had provided for this in its arrays, but unfortunately they didn't....)

Stay Tuned.... :)

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Scales, chords, and Push:
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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:04 pm
Posts: 2506
My only point of disagreement is over your use of the word "Obviously" :)

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(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)


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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:06 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
crumhorn wrote:
My only point of disagreement is over your use of the word "Obviously" :)

Hey, I've only used it once so far in this thread ..... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:17 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:04 pm
Posts: 2506
Seriously though, this thread is very interesting to me, I'm a great fan of the phrygian mode and related scales like the double harmonic and "gypsy" minor.

One of my favorite variations of the F -> E progression is to use FMaj7#11 ( like an F barre chord but with the 1st and 2nd strings left open)

F to Em might not be flamenco but it does sound good and lends itself to nice "Spanish sounding" guitar noodlings.

Adding a sharpened 4th is nice too, giving a kind of "Phrygian Blues" scale using the minor and/or major 3rd as appropriate for the chord progression. nice for jazzy noodlings on chords 1, 2 and 5 (eg Em7 FMaj7 Bm7b5).

But that's not flamenco either - don't want to drag you off topic...

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
There was a discussion on the Flamenco lists of the FMaj7 chord (F,A,C,E), primarily because of its use in the Solea. A number of us (myself included) felt with that the chord was useful primarily because of its voicing in the progression FMaj7->C->FMaj7 -> E in the open position, but sounded pretty wimpy in other contexts. Far more important was adding a b9 to the "Tonic" (E(b9))( E,G#,B) + F as a color (passing note, embellishment).

But almost all of us (except maybe Paco de Lucia, who was not weighing in... :) felt that although secondary dominants (e.g., the "cambio" of the copla, and their extensive use from Don Ramon Montoya forward) were acceptable, the further out one stacked thirds on chords, the less powerful the harmonic movement, and the Flamenco feeling of the music was lost almost immediately. (Like Dave Brubeck interpreting Mick Jagger...., sort of)

The problem for Flamenco guitar is that most of the interesting falsetas were created long ago, if you know where to look and who to listen to, and "Nuevo Flamenco" is basically "con-fusion"...

(Many famous guitarists added a lot of "junk" to Flamenco, IMO, but each to their own. Many Flamencos felt that PdL went from being a first rate Flamenco to a third rate jazz musician (although always an atomic technician). But PdL wasn't Gitano, either,.... Me, I don't know the difference between a first and third rate jazz musician, but I know that I didn't like any of PdL's music from Almoraima on.

There is a link to Brook Zern's website and articles on my website, and he expresses the difference far better than I.....

(A favorite Flamenco hypothesis is that it started with a guy with a guiter sitting on a street corner somewhere in Jerez in the early 1800's sliding and E chord up and down in the first position (the FMaj7#11->E) progressions and saying "that sounds good; maybe we can make something of this..."). A lot of Flamenco "disharmony" and several toques comes from consideration of open strings with the basic chords of Phrygian in various keys and detunings (Granadinas, Taranto, Rondena (detuned 6th to D and 3rd to F# strings), as well as drop D tuning (Zambra, Danza Mora in D, etc.) ....

But in my experience, progressions that sound great with guitar voicing, sometimes don't translate well to keyboards/Push.

(Hey, and I haven't even mentioned the "compas" (rhythm structures) yet..... )

crumhorn wrote:
Seriously though, this thread is very interesting to me, I'm a great fan of the phrygian mode and related scales like the double harmonic and "gypsy" minor.

One of my favorite variations of the F -> E progression is to use FMaj7#11 ( like an F barre chord but with the 1st and 2nd strings left open)

F to Em might not be flamenco but it does sound good and lends itself to nice "Spanish sounding" guitar noodlings.

Adding a sharpened 4th is nice too, giving a kind of "Phrygian Blues" scale using the minor and/or major 3rd as appropriate for the chord progression. nice for jazzy noodlings on chords 1, 2 and 5 (eg Em7 FMaj7 Bm7b5).

But that's not flamenco either - don't want to drag you off topic...

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Scales, chords, and Push:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=202364


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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:14 am
Posts: 799
can you teach me how to clap flamenco style


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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
sowhoso wrote:
can you teach me how to clap flamenco style


I have a basic section in my .pdf "Compas Analysis" on my website.....
http://www.flamencochuck.com/AcademyOfF ... uitar.html

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:57 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:14 am
Posts: 799
nice, but how do you clap flamenco style?


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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:10 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
sowhoso wrote:
nice, but how do you clap flamenco style?


With both hands..... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Another way of playing chords with is to use Cthulhu, a program which maps a single note from the keyboard to any chord you wish to define. This means that you can put Push in Chromatic mode and get all the chords mentioned above, if you assign them correctly.

http://www.xferrecords.com/products/cthulhu

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=202918&p=1594705#p1594705

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 Post subject: Re: Chords, Scales, and Push
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:48 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:52 am
Posts: 1238
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Found a good decompiler to decompile Python scripts, so don't need Julian Bayle's.. was able to update version 9.1.2 with my modifications...

http://sourceforge.net/projects/easypythondecompiler/

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