Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

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OB1Conoby
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Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by OB1Conoby » Sat May 17, 2014 4:39 pm

:cry: I am in the market for an integrated MIDI Controller (that's what Push and Maschine are) I dont own a commercial studio and cant afford nor need one. Push is being touted as an instrument but yet the bundled software doesnt allow for external hardware control. Given (and all know it) that the sound banks and VSTIs in Maschine are a lot better than Abletons it's a shame that you cant even use a midi controller as a midi controller due to ext instruments section not included with software. Lets do the math I can get a full version of maschine a real midi controller, good vsti's and sound banks for $499 why would I pay $1000. I think Ableton is making a bad decision. I was 5 minutes away from buying a Push when I reviewed a youtube tutorial on how to use hardware synth and noticed lite doesnt have external instruments option. Even if the option was available the Maschine is a better deal I just thought I would be different. I wanted to say I dont have a DAW but have demo'd some and given the price of Abletons DAW upgrade its not worth it to get the Push. Ableton you will lose a lot of potential sales due to this issue. I don't think that your upgrade sales will make up the difference. Also looking at other music forums it seems to be a nightmare to be an Ableton user around upgrade time. It seems that Ableton doesn't treat its users very well relative to price and data transition.

I wrote this hoping you will wake up. But if not I will get a real midi controller like the Maschine or a livid. Tooooooooooooooo Baaaaaaaaaaaaad

login
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by login » Sat May 17, 2014 6:00 pm

Maschine is not a full daw.

OB1Conoby
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by OB1Conoby » Sat May 17, 2014 9:51 pm

It is a DAW... Digital Audio Workstation. You may want to look again. It actually does a lot more than the lite Ableton version as a DAW. It will also allow me to use my external hardware synth triggered by the Maschine hardware. What part of it is not a DAW. I don't have a recording studio and don't want one I want to play live music and my argument is that the Ableton lite software is worthless and because the software in that version is worthless so is any hardware (Push) that is attached to it. All the synths, keyboards, guitars that I have are worthless if I have junk to play it through.

I am not the first person to say that the lite version is junk. When Push is bundled with it, its junk by its very nature. Ableton could very easily fix the problem but they might want to charge a 1000 and no one would buy it. Hmmmmmm me wonders. Look if Maschine can sell a usable version / bundle so can ableton for the same price. A few more buttons on the hardware didnt cost them that much more.


So the only response I received was Maschine is not a full DAW when Ableton lite is by all accounts I've read in other forums worthless. I would take that to mean that its not a full DAW either. I know this is true because it won' accept external hardware track

Analog4Science
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by Analog4Science » Sat May 17, 2014 10:29 pm

I had machine 1st then i got a push and Live Suite. i don't use machine at all now, except for the plugins.

OB1Conoby
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by OB1Conoby » Sat May 17, 2014 10:55 pm

I don't mean to sound rough... it just pissed me off when I found out that in its current state I can't use it. I will never pay for the upgrade just to be able to use my hardware synth. Its way to high. Im ok with only 8 channels and 4 inputs but to give me a midi device and say sorry you cant use it as a midi device is wrong. Even worse they are hiding that fact from everyone. I was lucky I decided to do one last look on you tube before ordering on line. Had I ordered it I would have downloaded and registered all the software and then found out its useless only to hear later "sorry sir you registered it we cant give you your money back. Ableton is a bunch of snakes for not making this clear. Its kind of like the Chevy start switch issue. Execs got together and asked the question how much to add (or Fix) the problem...vs how much do we lose if we dont. I'm sorry for the deaths Chevy has caused and didn't intend on diminishing their loss. I only would have lost 600 dollars but it would have been a total loss because I will not be forced into upgrading especially knowing they intentionally misinformed the public.

TomViolenz
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by TomViolenz » Sun May 18, 2014 9:23 am

Look, you made a good purchase decision for yourself. Maschine is a great controller, which comes bundled with great instruments and awesome one shot samples.
The Maschine software as it is, is fully tailored to be controlled with the Maschine controller. Which makes it both: awesomely integrated and limited.
What login said about Maschine not being a DAW is more than just a bullet point on a comparison sheet. It has actual meaning that you will discover as soon as you plan to make a real track with it. It will feel like doing brain surgery with boxing gloves.
You'll do it a few times till the challenge to do it becomes too burdensome.
So in any case, while some try without, most Maschine users use a DAW at some point.
With Push you already have everything you made in that DAW!

I hear you on Intro not being feature rich enough though, especially considering what comes with Maschine, but I don't think they have much room to move with their prices. Standard alone is already 350€ and it still doesn't have the necessary instruments (it does have your requested external instrument device though and all the scene/track/send limitations are lifted).
But especially because Sampler (It's soooo much more powerfull than Maschines sampler though, it's ridiculous) is so essential to the Push workflow with its 128s, you would have to go to Suite (which also includes Operator and other instruments and not to forget M4L). So we are talking 500€, just to bring it on par in the instruments department (the one shots still don't come even close).
If they would sell you that for your 600€ requested price that would mean they'd give you Push for 100€!
I'm sure that device in parts alone is close to 300€.

So if you look at it like this and don't know yet what having a real DAW means, Maschine is absolutely the better buy.

The great thing about it?!
Once you learn about this and find out what an awesome DAW Live is and what a great tailered to Live controller Push is, you will still own all the great Maschine instruments and all the great samples and an awesome controller to use with your DrumRacks in addition to Push!

So enjoy your Maschine experience (I know I did back in the day!) :-)

You'll be back ;-)

PS: And what you said about Ableton being cheats, who want to swindle you out of your money with falls claims, is simply outrageously not true!
They have good customer support and stand fully by their product. If you would have found out your mistake with assuming that the external instrument device is not included (I didn't know that either, but then I use Suite already), I'm 100% sure they would have let you return it, no questions asked!

Airyck
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by Airyck » Sun May 18, 2014 4:47 pm

I also started with Maschine and now don't use it anymore. Live (especially Suite) covers a lot of ground and I don't feel limited in anyway by it. I like the fact that it allows you to develop your own workflow so that you can work in a way that suits you. With the inclusion of Max for live there is a lot of room for growth as well. You do end up using the computer and mouse more but that isn't really a requirement for everyone (I use to produce in Cubase only with mouse, keyboard, and MIDI keyboard only). If you want to compare price for price, then at the low end of the spectrum you get a lot more with Maschine. At the high end of the spectrum you get a lot more with Live and Push... so it's up to you and where you are in your music making.

My fiancé loves Maschine btw and uses it exclusively until final mixing and mastering.
http://www.soundcloud.com/airyck-sterrett
Ableton Live 10 Suite / Push 2 / Max 7 & 8 /
2016 Macbook Pro 15"
Too much hardware to list

Sional
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by Sional » Sun May 18, 2014 5:35 pm

It is not necessary to use "External Instrument" to control outboard gear so Live Intro can be used for this purpose (use the I-O panel to direct your midi out to the external instrument). You might find it easier to use midi/USB converter cables to connect older external gear to the computer, makes it easier to select as a midi destination.

I own Push and Maschine and as far as I am concerned you can't go far wrong with either device.

OB1Conoby
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by OB1Conoby » Tue May 20, 2014 1:54 am

Thanks for your input. I was just mad because I felt Ableton was'nt being forthright with there info and I almost waisted $600. As stated I don't mind the reduced tracks, instruments etc.. I just think a midi controller INSTRUMENT should have all its functionality. Lets not forget they are selling a midi controller. Most poeple don't need or want the full suite all they want is the instrument aspect of it, so for them it does not deliver. It seems from the outside that Ableton's focus was to build an object to boost there software sales rather than build a usable instrument with the ability to get into recording if desired. I don't own or want a recording studio.

I did not buy the maschine. I wanted the push. That is another reason I am so upset. I was counting on the push. I will never get the push. I am the type of person that sets limits and won't spend money that shouldn,t be spent. I will not buy additional software I don't need for the prices they want. Lets say I wanted a house for just my wife and I and went to a builder asking for a 2 bedroom house with fireplace. I pay for the house and find out that the fire place has the box but no chimney and I cant build a fire in it. I have already purchased the house so I can't get my money back and ask the builder to fix it. What would you think if the builders response was sorry didn't we tell you,,, you have to buy the 7 bedroom house to get the chimney part. The good news is we can add on it for you but it will cost you double and its more than double for the full chimney....Don't feel bad though you have gotten an additional 5 rooms.

As far as price of standard and suite software, I would say that Ableton's likely not spending more than NI on it's Maschine software. Just because Ableton in front gets so much for their program doesn't mean they spent more on RD and production.

login
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by login » Tue May 20, 2014 3:27 am

OB1Conoby wrote:Thanks for your input. I was just mad because I felt Ableton was'nt being forthright with there info and I almost waisted $600. As stated I don't mind the reduced tracks, instruments etc.. I just think a midi controller INSTRUMENT should have all its functionality. Lets not forget they are selling a midi controller. Most poeple don't need or want the full suite all they want is the instrument aspect of it, so for them it does not deliver. It seems from the outside that Ableton's focus was to build an object to boost there software sales rather than build a usable instrument with the ability to get into recording if desired. I don't own or want a recording studio.
Pretty much this, they developed a quality controller for their software to sale both. Is a different product to maschine in that regard not a "full package", limited if you don't upgrade to standard.

But well it's their bussiness model, if you don't like what is in offer go with maschine.

login
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by login » Tue May 20, 2014 3:30 am

OB1Conoby wrote:
As far as price of standard and suite software, I would say that Ableton's likely not spending more than NI on it's Maschine software. Just because Ableton in front gets so much for their program doesn't mean they spent more on RD and production.
Well I think it's priced accordingly, maschine lacks tons of features of Live.

All daws have similar prices, except logic which is subsidized by Apple to seel more macs and reaper which is a one man operation.

And probably NI is bigger and has more sales.

Sional
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:36 pm

Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by Sional » Tue May 20, 2014 8:37 am

OB1Conoby wrote:Thanks for your input. I was just mad because I felt Ableton was'nt being forthright with there info and I almost waisted $600. As stated I don't mind the reduced tracks, instruments etc.. I just think a midi controller INSTRUMENT should have all its functionality. Lets not forget they are selling a midi controller. Most poeple don't need or want the full suite all they want is the instrument aspect of it, so for them it does not deliver. It seems from the outside that Ableton's focus was to build an object to boost there software sales rather than build a usable instrument with the ability to get into recording if desired. I don't own or want a recording studio.

I did not buy the maschine. I wanted the push. That is another reason I am so upset. I was counting on the push. I will never get the push. I am the type of person that sets limits and won't spend money that shouldn,t be spent. I will not buy additional software I don't need for the prices they want. Lets say I wanted a house for just my wife and I and went to a builder asking for a 2 bedroom house with fireplace. I pay for the house and find out that the fire place has the box but no chimney and I cant build a fire in it. I have already purchased the house so I can't get my money back and ask the builder to fix it. What would you think if the builders response was sorry didn't we tell you,,, you have to buy the 7 bedroom house to get the chimney part. The good news is we can add on it for you but it will cost you double and its more than double for the full chimney....Don't feel bad though you have gotten an additional 5 rooms.

As far as price of standard and suite software, I would say that Ableton's likely not spending more than NI on it's Maschine software. Just because Ableton in front gets so much for their program doesn't mean they spent more on RD and production.
I don't understand your complaint; as I explained you can use Live Intro to control external gear. Although I have Live 9 Suite, I often control my external gear just using the I-O panel and don't bother with the "External Instrument" plugin (probably because my first Ableton product was Live 6 LE so I got used to working that way).

OB1Conoby
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Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 4:20 pm

Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by OB1Conoby » Wed May 21, 2014 1:56 am

login wrote:
OB1Conoby wrote:
As far as price of standard and suite software, I would say that Ableton's likely not spending more than NI on it's Maschine software. Just because Ableton in front gets so much for their program doesn't mean they spent more on RD and production.
Well I think it's priced accordingly, maschine lacks tons of features of Live.

All daws have similar prices, except logic which is subsidized by Apple to seel more macs and reaper which is a one man operation.

And probably NI is bigger and has more sales.

Maschine software with Maschine hardware has tons more features looking at the instrument aspect of it. And that is what the push is,,, its an instrument and relative to that abletons features are lacking not Maschines

jestermgee
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by jestermgee » Wed May 21, 2014 4:26 am

Actually I would say that each device is a control surface, not an instrument.

This debate has been going on and on and on since Push came out. The bottom line is BOTH have similarities in that they are external controllers for a software interface but they both offer different features and benefits because we are all different in our approaches.

I like Push because I was already a Live user and it seemed like a natural step and it works great. It is then further enhanced with additional scripts such as PXT/Live that add all kinds of extra functions and features.

Some users (as stated above) have owned BOTH and would be the best candidates to suggest which offers "more for the money" but that will always be subjective as the bottom line cost is not always the deciding factor on what is the best value.

We live in an ever increasing world of people that seem to know the cost of everything but understand the value of little.

TomViolenz
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Re: Maschine A LOT MORE bang for the buck

Post by TomViolenz » Wed May 21, 2014 7:56 am

So which is it?
OB1Conoby wrote: Maschine software with Maschine hardware has tons more features looking at the instrument aspect of it. And that is what the push is,,, its an instrument and relative to that abletons features are lacking not Maschines
or
I did not buy the maschine. I wanted the push.
And why don't you respond to the posts that adressed your problem with Live Intro, showing you that it's a non-issue?!

Are you trolling?! ;-)

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