Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

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yur2die4
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by yur2die4 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:46 pm

What it seems to do is immediately record the notes (not a bad idea) but there is little to no wrap around context.

So it is confusing in several ways, most of them referring to the starting point of the clip.

Since it records almost immediately, you're actually not sure Where it began recording your notes, and at what quantized interval. Like 3 sixteenth notes into a bar? I dunno, it doesn't wait the way quantized clip launch functions.

And then the starting point of the clip ends up in an unexpected place. Which isn't terrible after the first recording, but once you trigger it again later, it'll be out of sync. To make matters worse, this starting point is confusing both in context of a single bar (as in, how far within the clip you recorded is the start point), and the arrangement (if you're doing 4 bar loops, it probably won't predict that you are on the second to last bar, recording notes, wanting it to come back around again at the designated 4 bars). Then again it might be taking cues from the master global arrangement in divisions of the bars you have it set to. I have no clue because the behavior is completely unpredictable. Weirdest mojo in the entire program if you ask me.

What would be nice are:

1. Taking notes from Maschine. Maschine relies ENTIRELY on this concept and the clip magically is Always there, looming somewhere in the background. What notes can they take from how smoothly it operates, towards implementing it into this feature of Push?

2. Duplication of note data to the end and beginning of the clip. Since you are interrupting Live out of the blue to make a clip, you might also be in the middle of a clip. The most predictable way to manage this data is to make it appear consistently in the clip. So the start and end points can be put in logical places.

3. It somehow needs to know what position 'the majority' of clips are playing in, in relation to the set loop length. If two bar clips are halfway through, and a four bar clip is almost to the end, it should understand your intentions. Yet, I get that it probably can't guess. Which is leaves us with what we have now....

My only request is for a better explanation by Ableton of the quirks and functionality of the current method. So at least we can wrap our head around it and be able to expect certain outcomes, or we can try to use it in a more desirable way to get best results. Right now, I forget what the explanation is in the manual, but I bet when you look at it and then try to use the button, it makes you emotionally confused.

Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:32 pm

[jur] wrote:Sorry... that wasn't my intention, something wrong happened and I can't find a way to recover your post :|
What's even stranger I made an edit earlier today and it was gone.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:40 pm

yur2die4 wrote:What it seems to do is immediately record the notes (not a bad idea) but there is little to no wrap around context.
So what you want is for it to behave a little more like a looper?

This with immediate recording has nothing to do with fixed length. As should be expected when you press record Live records.

I can understand the discussion if this is about a feature for how it could work also. But previous posts have indicated that this should be considered a bug. That does not make sense to me.
If I have a drum machine and I work on a loop and I start to add a real time recording in bar 2, naturally bar 2 is where I want it. However, I'd appreciate if I could start a recording with my first key press. But If I'm overdubbing and recording in fixed length scenario that's what I'm doing and what I get.

This leaves live performance and looper like functionality. There is no current way to have a MIDI looper? Because it sounds to me that is what is needed for a performance situation.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:48 pm

yur2die4 wrote:

3. It somehow needs to know what position 'the majority' of clips are playing in, in relation to the set loop length. If two bar clips are halfway through, and a four bar clip is almost to the end, it should understand your intentions. Yet, I get that it probably can't guess. Which is leaves us with what we have now....
I like how you think here. I often have issues with the start, end and loop points of a clip. Especially for upbeat phrases or anacrusis.
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blobbyghast
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by blobbyghast » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:12 pm

This is the problem, as a musician just attempting to put together a live performance:

I record a MIDI loop using the footswitch to punch-in/out. It begins looping perfectly.
I record a 2nd MIDI loop using footswitch to punch-in/out. Again, loops perfectly.
I record a 3rd MIDI loop, using Fixed Length so that I don't need to touch the footswitch to punch-in/out. This clip for some reason begins recording off-beat, perhaps on the 2 of the measure! And it is impossible to start recording on the 1! It FORCES you to record on the 2, which makes no sense - if I choose to start recording before the 1, it will record the notes, but it still forces the starting point to land on the 2. Then, if you re-launch that clip, it starts what had recorded on the 2 now on the 1 (since that is the "start" of the clip), and it is now completely out of sync. Also, if you try to fix it up using the Push's clip settings, the loop start points etc just don't work (bug?), but of course in a live setting I'd hope to never be in that menu in the first place.

This simply makes no sense as someone trying to put together a live performance, and makes Fixed Length entirely useless. I don't understand any reason for this that is being given in this thread, but please just tell me... when you read my situation above, doesn't this make zero sense for someone trying to create a live performance? When the other "loops wheels" all line up, why would Fixed Length decide to start its loop wheel at a separate point from all the others?

People are trying to explain logical reasons in this thread, but I cannot figure out any logic behind it. All I see is that it picks an arbitrary point to start recording, FORCES you to use this point no matter when you hit record, and then resets that point back to the 1 when you re-launch the clip. Its maddening as someone who is just a musician, just trying to use these functions in ways that should be completely straightforward.

Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:42 pm

blobbyghast wrote:This is the problem, as a musician just attempting to put together a live performance:

I record a MIDI loop using the footswitch to punch-in/out. It begins looping perfectly.
I record a 2nd MIDI loop using footswitch to punch-in/out. Again, loops perfectly.
I record a 3rd MIDI loop, using Fixed Length so that I don't need to touch the footswitch to punch-in/out. This clip for some reason begins recording off-beat,
I don't see this happening in any unexpected way. You must explain better in more detail what you actually mean so anyone can recreate this issue. What I see is that the loop is beginning to play it's length and if I start to play later than at 1.1.1 of this clip then of course my notes will be placed exactly at the point of time I play them in relation to the musical context so the playback will sound as when I recorded it. The clip will not start at my first key press down.

You sound like if you want a looper functionality. Fixed Length Recording is not looper functionality. It might be that I simply can't recreate this issue so I misunderstand but it sounds like you effectively want a new attractive feature. Why don't you refer to it like that? That would make much sense and be easy to understand.

If none of this is relevant, then you must be saying that you do indeed start playing at 1.1.1, but the first note is dropped or misplaced. Or that the length isn't respected fully.


So
> What do you expect to happen and what were your intentions?
> What do you do exactly? Describe step by step and mention everything you use including hardware.
> What happens instead of your expectations?
> What would you like to see changed?
> Can you accept that new functionality does not mean another existing functionality has bugs even if it doesn't have the new feature you want?

A bug means it's supposed to work a certain way, but doesn't. To me your description as well as previous ones sounds like how it's supposed to work a certain way and does. Please elaborate if this is not so so we can understand.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:44 pm

blobbyghast wrote:it picks an arbitrary point to start recording, FORCES you to use this point no matter when you hit record, and then resets that point back to the 1 when you re-launch the clip. Its maddening as someone who is just a musician, just trying to use these functions in ways that should be completely straightforward.
This is what I can't recreate. How do I do that?
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blobbyghast
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by blobbyghast » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:54 pm

Your first reply does seem to be missing my point, because the bug that you reference in your 2nd reply is the entire thing that I am complaining about. I label it as a "bug" because I do not see Fixed Length picking an arbitrary point to FORCE me to record at, regardless of when I press the Record button, as a feature (maybe if the point it chose was 1.1.1, but not, like, 1.1.3 or whatever it chooses to force me into)

I'm not sure of the specific requirements to recreate it, as it seems to begin happening randomly during my beat creation process. If you'd like, I can create a video demo of this problem. But I'll have to figure out a good way to capture this in video form.

And I guess I might as well take the time to video document all the other bugs I've run into on the Push when I do this.

Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:27 pm

blobbyghast wrote:
I'm not sure of the specific requirements to recreate it, as it seems to begin happening randomly during my beat creation process. If you'd like, I can create a video demo of this problem. But I'll have to figure out a good way to capture this in video form.

And I guess I might as well take the time to video document all the other bugs I've run into on the Push when I do this.
Make a video if you want and if you feel that is the easiest way to put your point across, but a list of all actions taken are often very useful for finding causes as well as solutions. It can be hard to decode what other people do from a video.

On the other hand if the action path taken isn't repeatable a video may make more sense. I've had very strange issues involving third party plug-ins and nothing made sense. I got great help from support though.
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blobbyghast
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by blobbyghast » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:47 am

I captured a "light" version of the bug. This particular version is harmful if not looking at your monitor, but is not too bad if you are.

In this video, I repeatedly attempt to record a clip starting with the 1st bar, but the Push keeps forcing me to record on the 3rd bar, just because I have Fixed Length enabled. If I go to re-trigger this clip, it is going to start from Bar 1.

If I were to disable Fixed Length, it would be recording from Bar 1 in this exact same situation, with me pressing the record button at the same time that I am in this video. But with Fixed Length enabled, it picks Bar 3 to begin recording in. This makes it pretty much impossible to use Fixed Length without staring at your monitor, because you don't know when this is happening. The (currently stopped) other 4-bar tracks properly began their Fixed Length recording on Bar 1.

(The clip starts with the clip repeat counter showing a high number, since I guess with this setup, it counts repeats even when you delete the clip, but it was forcing this 3rd-bar-recording from the very first recording attempt)

-

See how, for example, the phrase that I am attempting to record at 1:03 will be starting from the middle of the phrase once I re-trigger it?

I am almost hesitant to post this, because I feel some will think this is as intended, because since you are SEEING the monitor in this video, it is hard to imagine how completely unnatural this is to someone attempting to use the Push with their monitor disabled.
Just keep in mind:
-If Fixed Length were disabled, the clip would have properly started recording with Bar 1, every time.
-The (currently stopped) previous 4-bar clips, also recorded with Fixed Length, began with Bar 1. This track is the first one that suddenly decided to begin with Bar 3. It is impossible to know this without constantly looking at your monitor. And just... WHY??
-Fixed Length sometimes picks worse starting points, like Bar 2 of 4, which leads to entirely uneven sync when re-triggered. This video is a case of forced Bar 3, which perhaps is less obviously harmful.


Anyway, I know that this video doesn't show what led up to this. This is simply a video to prove that this can happen. I believe, upon attempting to recreate this, that it has a higher chance of occurring if you enter Session View between recording a previous track and recording the next track, but I will continue to attempt to pinpoint the cause and get a better recording of this.
Last edited by blobbyghast on Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:22 pm

blobbyghast wrote:I captured a "light" version of the bug. This particular version is harmful if not looking at your monitor, but is not too bad if you are.

Thanks for sharing blobbyghast. I was thinking about 2 things watching this. Firstly, can you repeat this issue without the foot controller? Could it be involved and contribute to this issue?
Secondly, what is your global quantize when you experience this issue?
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blobbyghast
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by blobbyghast » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:30 pm

For that video, global quantize was at 1 bar, no footswitch used.

edit: oh global quantize, was thinking of the other quantize, let me check

edit2: 1 bar

blobbyghast
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by blobbyghast » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:54 am

If you want to try to re-create this bug, this is basically what I am usually doing.

Entire song is created on the Push alone.
Add Track > Add a drum rack.
Start the song going, don't use Fixed Length yet, record a 2 bar drum loop. Add an instrument track, record it, make it maybe 4 bars. Add another instrument track, use Fixed Length now, make it 4 or 8 bars. Now, go to Session view. Stop one of the instrument tracks. Add another track, note view, record it with Fixed Length set to 4 bars.

Starting there, you might get the bug, so keep an eye on the monitor to make sure they are lining up how you'd expect. If not, continue basically following these steps, stop some instruments and add some more in new instrument tracks with Fixed Length, and you should eventually get the bug.

Stromkraft
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by Stromkraft » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:32 am

blobbyghast wrote:If you want to try to re-create this bug, this is basically what I am usually doing.

Entire song is created on the Push alone.
Add Track > Add a drum rack.
Start the song going, don't use Fixed Length yet, record a 2 bar drum loop. Add an instrument track, record it, make it maybe 4 bars. Add another instrument track, use Fixed Length now, make it 4 or 8 bars. Now, go to Session view. Stop one of the instrument tracks. Add another track, note view, record it with Fixed Length set to 4 bars.

Starting there, you might get the bug, so keep an eye on the monitor to make sure they are lining up how you'd expect. If not, continue basically following these steps, stop some instruments and add some more in new instrument tracks with Fixed Length, and you should eventually get the bug.
OK, I'll try.
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joeyfivecents
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Re: Fixed Length recording starts off-measure

Post by joeyfivecents » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:57 pm

It simply does not work properly. I have contacted Ableton support about this and they have provided zero answers. There shouldn't be a debate about this. It just doesn't work they way it is supposed to. Period. And until they acknowledge this and fix it, it will be a useless function.
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