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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:40 pm
by JPacker555
kabur glasgow wrote:Another Ableton Beta released without a fix for this issue.
https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article ... ase-notes/
pretty disappointing

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:48 am
by Kris.P
It seems pretty responsive to me ... I honestly don'y see an issue and it's certainly not a single easily definable issue.

I changed a parameter in the pack I was using and it made a world of difference .. and amended my original post. I t was never a mechanical issue with Push2 IMO.
You may have a legitimate issue but it's more likely to do with the parameters in the sound pack u r using I think. See previous posts above in this thread by Erik. He solved my issue.

FWIW, I'm very happy with Push2.

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:53 am
by scheffkoch
...same here...no reason to panic...

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:45 am
by JPacker555
Not panicking, just not pleased that this has been an issue for quite some time without much mention from developers. I appreciate the suggestion but I've tried it on numerous packs/plugins with no difference. You can see my videos in the original post on this thread, and nothing has changed since. As it stands, if I were playing live/recording I would choose my $200 midi keyboard or my returned Push 1 instead of my $800 Push 2 every time. That isn't right

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:11 am
by starving student
Kris.P wrote:It seems pretty responsive to me ... I honestly don'y see an issue and it's certainly not a single easily definable issue.

I changed a parameter in the pack I was using and it made a world of difference .. and amended my original post. I t was never a mechanical issue with Push2 IMO.
You may have a legitimate issue but it's more likely to do with the parameters in the sound pack u r using I think. See previous posts above in this thread by Erik. He solved my issue.

FWIW, I'm very happy with Push2.
everybody is happy with push 2, but regarding the issue at hand did you see the videos on the issue and if this isn't what you're experiencing are you also not experiencing this if you copy what's going on in the videos?

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:24 am
by Kris.P
starving student wrote:everybody is happy with push 2, but regarding the issue at hand did you see the videos on the issue and if this isn't what you're experiencing are you also not experiencing this if you copy what's going on in the videos?
Yes I did. Mine feels as responsive to my ears as his demo on the Push 1.

However, I experienced a similar thing when I used the Suite's Guitar and Bass pack (Guitar Clean > Guitar.adg and discovered (for me) that it was one of the parameters in the sound pack that was causing me grief ... because it included the guitar string *deadsound* which was linked to a pressure velocity which I guess was to mimic a finger not pressing hard enough on a string ... once I altered that parameter it was all smooth again.

Then again, the sound pack was creating a high-fidelity guitar sound mimicking all phases of produced sound based on finger pressure (I'm guessing) .. and in that it did a pretty good job, but if I want to play "that specific soundpack" it's not practical because of the single *deadsound* parameter .. unless I were to adjust my finger feel and learn what the tolerances are .. just as I would on a guitar, except as a guitarist I find it easier to do with a guitar :D.

It would be helpful for me if we knew the exact sound pack that JPacker555 is using .. I've tried with various squarish sounding synth sounds and it still works flawlessly for me ...

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:03 am
by fishmonkey
Kris.P wrote: It would be helpful for me if we knew the exact sound pack that JPacker555 is using .. I've tried with various squarish sounding synth sounds and it still works flawlessly for me ...
the issue with the pads is not related to a specific instrument. it's a problem with the way the Push 2 senses pad pressure. as someone with a decent level of tech knowledge, it worries me that they still haven't been able to program a solid fix for this. it suggests that the problem is deeper than the firmware layer and difficult to solve algorithmically in the firmware (i.e. when the electronics mistakenly say this, do this instead).

the issue is less extreme in the latest firmware, but it is still present. it's most apparent if you maintain continuous finger pressure on a pad and play repeated notes. the response is highly variable. you will get some very low velocity notes, and sometimes notes of much higher velocity will spring forth, and the velocities don't always map sensibly to your finger pressure.

if you play the pads in a more percussive way where you always completely remove your fingers from the pads, then the velocity maps well to finger pressure and the issue is not apparent. i find it most problematic when playing piano, where it's common technique to sometimes rest fingers on keys before playing notes.

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:32 am
by Tarekith
I wonder how much techniques from one style of instrument are valid on something completely new though? To me some of this seems almost more like technique issues to some extent. I admit I've always played pad controllers more like drum pads and completely remove my fingers between presses. At the same time, I never get these issues like people here are experience, I can't even reproduce it when I try unfortunately.

Will be interesting to see how this gets changed in the future.

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:11 am
by Kris.P
fishmonkey wrote:
Kris.P wrote: It would be helpful for me if we knew the exact sound pack that JPacker555 is using .. I've tried with various squarish sounding synth sounds and it still works flawlessly for me ...
the issue with the pads is not related to a specific instrument. it's a problem with the way the Push 2 senses pad pressure. ... i find it most problematic when playing piano, where it's common technique to sometimes rest fingers on keys before playing notes.
It may be a bit of both, but I don't have any issues with the pad sensitivity. Piano is pretty sensitive .. I can stroke a key and hammer a key and everything in between. I have a real piano (an upright .. old style) and honestly it's easier to get expressive on the Push2 lol.

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:41 am
by fishmonkey
basically the amount of pressure applied should map to the same velocity if your finger is already resting on the pad, compared to if you strike the pad from a distance. the problem was very pronounced with the first version of the firmware, you would sometimes get full velocity spikes when pressing a pad gently while your finger was resting on a pad.

Push 1 does not have this issue...

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:25 am
by starving student
yeah if it's simply not triggering the right output from the right input then understanding this should be pretty straight forward, I'm not so sure you'd want to address a technical issue with an adjustment in technique?... Especially if the problem was more pronounced in a prior firmware and they acknowledged it's existence already, improved it, but haven't completely corrected it yet?

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:34 pm
by JPacker555
I think fishmonkey is highlighting the most important things for me here, which are - the response is inconsistent and therefore it is not reliable as an instrument; it seems to be dependent on technique, and those playing in a staccato/percussive manner won't experience it; what stands out the most is, Push 1 does not have this issue! As somebody who enjoys livelooping, having to frequently rerecord passages can really mess up the flow of your song, so this is why its most disappointing.

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:52 pm
by starving student
well yeah if you're playing staccato notes you don't have the issue just like you wouldn't have the issue if you didn't play any notes, that doesn't negate the fact that it should be easy to understand if your finger is being held down on a pad and notes are spiking... is a problem, regardless of technic.

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:54 pm
by JPacker555
starving student wrote:well yeah if you're playing staccato notes you don't have the issue just like you wouldn't have the issue if you didn't play any notes, that doesn't negate the fact that it should be easy to understand if your finger is being held down on a pad and notes are spiking... is a problem, regardless of technic.
I wasn't trying to imply that its not a problem - I was inferring that those who naturally play in that manner aren't going to detect the problem and can't really understand our plight. And it seems that Ableton either used exclusively that finger-drummer style of player to test the Push 2, or just didn't care to resolve the problem before release

Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:11 pm
by ObtuseMoose
fishmonkey wrote:basically the amount of pressure applied should map to the same velocity if your finger is already resting on the pad, compared to if you strike the pad from a distance.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on exactly how they're doing that mapping.

A moving finger striking a pad has kinetic energy and inertia and will exert a greater force for a brief time than a finger just resting on the pad and increasing the pressure with muscles.

Think of the different reactions you'd have if I dropped a 10 pound weight on your foot from a height of 3 feet versus gently laying the same weight on your foot. The ultimate pressure is the same, but there's an initial impulse of much greater pressure in the dropped case because of the kinetic energy and inertia of the moving weight and your non-moving foot.

The way the pressure changes over time will also be different in each case. In the case of a finger strike, the pressure will increase much more quickly than in the case of a stationary finger increasing pressure. In other words, the strike case has a much shorter attack time.

Finally, the pads on the Push are made of some sort of elastic (springy) material, so there is likely to be some bouncing or oscillation of the sensed pressure until it settles down to a more or less stable value. This oscillation will likely be greater in the case of the rapid rise of pressure due to the finger strike than the slower rise of pressure of the stationary finger.

My guess is that it's this elasticity of the pads that is causing the problem. The timing of when they sample the pressure may be very critical, and variations in finger size and playing style could be difficult to account for, resulting in some people having no trouble at all while others find the device virtually unusable.

As to why Push 1 didn't seem to have this problem, I can only speculate that perhaps the pad material had slightly different properties, or maybe the firmware had more time to sense and process the pad signals.

All just guesses on my part, but I can see how this could be a difficult problem to solve.

--
Moose