Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

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starving student
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by starving student » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:56 am

what is push the first and push the second? :x

Leave Trace
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Leave Trace » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:18 pm

On a related note, the pitch strip on my Push 2 is way less responsive than my Push 1. It feels very sluggish in its pitch bends and much less sensitive to touches and taps. There seems to be some pitch bend smoothing built in, so perhaps this is by design.

On Push 1 you could quickly drum your fingers on the strip to create some wild tremolo effects, not so much on my Push 2. It works fine for smooth pitch bends, but can't replicate the immediate pitch jumps of the P1. That was great for those fiddly freakout moments in a solo.

Razz CE
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Razz CE » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:34 pm

Yeah I've got the same problem with the touch strip as well.

I'd be interested to know what OS everybody is on. I'm pretty sure the main problem right now is that Push 2 just isn't getting along with Windows very well, especially Windows 7.

I've been in touch with support for a while now and they're aware of it. Just gotta wait for a fix.
Win 10 x64/16GB/i7 6700k
Live 9 Suite/Cubase Pro 9.5
Audient iD4/Push 2/Steinberg CMC-CH/Launchkey 25

tedlogan
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by tedlogan » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:06 pm

Yeah, Push 1's touchstrip was a lot more responsive to fast tapping. Compared just now side by side.

Windows 8.1

jestermgee
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by jestermgee » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:25 pm

tedlogan wrote:Yeah, Push 1's touchstrip was a lot more responsive to fast tapping. Compared just now side by side.
I found this too that in order to mape the pitch strip work well at all you need our finger to be flat on the strip, not just the tip of your finger like Push 1.

starving student
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by starving student » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:19 am

thanks for bringing this up, would everybody in this thread please state what your computer os and specs are so people reading will know what we are dealing with regarding these issues?

emkays
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by emkays » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:28 am

For those not having issues with pad dynamics or delay, it would be interesting to hear if the following behaviour brings it up. I'm detailing it very specifically even if it sounds a little weird here:
- call up a sound that responds dramatically to velocity. It would also help if the sound also has a fairly fast attack. For example a piano patch.
- approach a pad as if you were about to play a very soft note. Even nearly (or actually if gentle) resting your finger on the pad as you would with piano or many other instruments.
- the "squeeze" the pad with some force (again common when playing real instruments or other controllers)

You should notice fairly large velocity values regardless of how quickly you attack a note. It will vary somewhat with pressure. And you'll notice a delay (not necessarily every time, but often enough). Output seems dictated by the "squeeze" pressure and not actually velocity (i.e. attack) as is common on every other controller and real instrument.

I haven't tested the touch strip since I haven't gotten past this to even get to that level expressive control. I'll have to check it out though.
Also to answer Starving Student: OS X.10, various computers. All the same issue. This particular issue seems to be an issue with the way the Push generates velocity data and doesn't seem to depend on OS configuration as far as I can tell so far. In fact, it happens with the same MIDI data that's passed onto other DAWs as well.

tedlogan
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by tedlogan » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:41 am

As much as I love the new Push, I'm struggling to understand how they could have allowed it to ship with its pads in this state. Were all the testers perhaps strictly finger drumming?

Everyone raved about how much easier they are to play as well. This is simply nonsense. They're no harder nor easier to play, just inconsistent in dynamics.

Bah, time for bed. I'm pretty sure Ableton will roll out some firmware like they did to fix Push 1's initial poor aftertouch response. I just hope it doesn't take a year like it did then, to fix these much more problematic dynamics issues.

starving student
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by starving student » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:51 am

I don't know how many people ableton has working on Push 2 but I would assume that this is the number one priority for all of them!!!

Razz CE
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by Razz CE » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:30 am

emkays wrote:For those not having issues with pad dynamics or delay, it would be interesting to hear if the following behaviour brings it up. I'm detailing it very specifically even if it sounds a little weird here:
- call up a sound that responds dramatically to velocity. It would also help if the sound also has a fairly fast attack. For example a piano patch.
- approach a pad as if you were about to play a very soft note. Even nearly (or actually if gentle) resting your finger on the pad as you would with piano or many other instruments.
- the "squeeze" the pad with some force (again common when playing real instruments or other controllers)

You should notice fairly large velocity values regardless of how quickly you attack a note. It will vary somewhat with pressure. And you'll notice a delay (not necessarily every time, but often enough). Output seems dictated by the "squeeze" pressure and not actually velocity (i.e. attack) as is common on every other controller and real instrument.

I haven't tested the touch strip since I haven't gotten past this to even get to that level expressive control. I'll have to check it out though.
Also to answer Starving Student: OS X.10, various computers. All the same issue. This particular issue seems to be an issue with the way the Push generates velocity data and doesn't seem to depend on OS configuration as far as I can tell so far. In fact, it happens with the same MIDI data that's passed onto other DAWs as well.
That problem isn't OS-specific. They're working on a fix for it right now, I believe. I was glad that (I think it was you) someone pointed out the delay. I'm starting to become decent at playing the pads, but not so good that I couldn't believe the delay was just my shitty playing. Push 2 is gaslighting me!
Win 10 x64/16GB/i7 6700k
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Audient iD4/Push 2/Steinberg CMC-CH/Launchkey 25

tedlogan
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by tedlogan » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:25 pm

More comparing here...no matter what I do, I cannot get Push 2 to play as expressively as Push 1.

On Push 1, the default velocity curve and around -13 pad threshold is perfect, with an appropriate velocity-sensitive instrument.
With the second one, I'm struggling to consistently hit those really soft notes, and many in between.

The first one, in this regard, totally blows it out of the water.

That said though, my opinion might be void as I have not done what Tarekith recommends yet and just remembered this as I type:

(Push wax off tip)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7anbsUIQGyg

So the residue on the pads is meant to wear away, resulting in much improved responsiveness? cannot remember if Push 1 came like this. Perhaps it did. I guess Push 2 is the new pair of shoes. Great n all, but very uncomfortable til you wear them in.


Either way, I'll be trying that with another unit sometime next week as I will be exchanging this one because of another issue. The periodic jitter on one encoder drives me nuts.

starving student
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by starving student » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:35 pm

Tedlogan, what about the video examples of people Playing Push 2, are you saying that your push is different when you're playing it or are you saying that the responsiveness in those videos is not good enough for what you're trying to accomplish? For people without a push drawing a correlation could be helpful.

tedlogan
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by tedlogan » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:17 am

I don't think my Push is different. About the responsiveness in videos - I meant review videos - no one specifically mentions these obvious velocity problems, which has been confirmed by Ableton. Just a bit surprising. Also in those videos, no one really demonstrates expressive playing.


Earlier in this thread, these were posted demonstrating some of the differences between Push 1 and 2:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsRUhDWlDAw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzIOaDP0JYI

and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QskR9t2mtw

Mine's exactly the same, as I guess is everyone in the world's. Some just don't use dynamic instrument patches, so no bother to them, and not noticed.

In any case, the first Push plays a lot more expressively. Very easy to play very softly, very easy to ramp it up. On Push 2 this is a struggle to do consistently.

Like I said, I haven't broken this one in yet though, so that's another factor. I'm not fretting over this, I'm sure it'll get addressed. I'm just mentioning my surprise that this is so. A bug fix is incoming though, so don't let this stop you from buying one.

JPacker555
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by JPacker555 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:36 am

I hate to say it, but I don't think its the break in period. The Push 1 you see in those videos was purchased new only a couple of weeks before the Push 2 was announced, so I was able to compare them both in mint condition.

If anybody can confirm the technique in takerith's video though, that would be awesome

Also for those with windows, rest assure I am having the dynamic playing issues on my mac as well (both mid 2011 MacBook Air core i5 1.5GHz 4GB RAM OSX 10.11 El Capitan and mid 2014 Mac Mini dual core i5 2.3 GHz 8GB RAM OSX 10.10 Yosemite)

tedlogan
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Re: Anyone else find the Push 2 unplayable?

Post by tedlogan » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:27 am

JPacker555 wrote:I hate to say it, but I don't think its the break in period. The Push 1 you see in those videos was purchased new only a couple of weeks before the Push 2 was announced, so I was able to compare them both in mint condition.

If anybody can confirm the technique in takerith's video though, that would be awesome

Also for those with windows, rest assure I am having the dynamic playing issues on my mac as well (both mid 2011 MacBook Air core i5 1.5GHz 4GB RAM OSX 10.11 El Capitan and mid 2014 Mac Mini dual core i5 2.3 GHz 8GB RAM OSX 10.10 Yosemite)
Ah cheers, good to know. I've had the original Push for over 2 years, so cannot remember how it was at first. It does kick Push 2's pads in the teeth, yes.

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