Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

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Lignus
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:50 pm

Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Lignus » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:51 am

Hey guys, sorry for such offensive title, but I just can't seem to figure this thing out.

I purchased Push 2 like a week ago with not so much a research, (since everybody was just praising this instrument I thought I should just buy it right away)

I tried few different music production using this gear, first 2 days were tough. I had to figure out how to actually operate this guy and addition to that, I am not really comfortable with using live so I had to learn two things at the same time.

Let me just briefly introduce my situation.
I have Maschine, I am a keyboard player, used Logic for a while and switched to Ableton Live about 3 months ago.

Let me explain why I think Push is not for me as a Maschine owner and a keyboard player.
1) Browsing function on Push is pretty good. But I feel like using the mouse to just navigate by looking at the screen is way faster.

2) Sampling Features and converting to Drum Rack is pretty amazing but I think I can pretty much do that on Maschine. I think it would take a little more effort and time. But definitely not worth $799

3) Drum step sequencing pretty amazing but can be done on Maschine as well.

4) As a keyboard player, note scale function on push 2 is just not useful at all. I am way more comfortable on playing keys rather than Push 2

5) Knobs are great but I can do that on my Midi keyboard.

6) One of the biggest reason why I purchased Push 2 was performing live. But with a little more research, It seems like it is smarter to go for Launchpad or APC40 since I will just play the clips I produced.

What is really a strength to this instrument? If I can't really find any strength that can enhance my music production I think I am going to refund this right away...
I feel like this instrument is good for people who don't know how to play keyboard, don't know how to sample with Maschine.

Just simply put,
When I produce music, my eyes are fixed on the monitor even though I have my Push 2 in front of me. Most of the work is done by mouse and keyboard shortcuts and my MIDI keyboard. I force my self to use the Push but it feels like I can just do those with other way easily.

What do you guys think? I am sure that there should be amazing feature on this thing but I just can't seem to find it...
Do you guys think I just need to spend more time with Push 2?

Chingy
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:57 pm

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Chingy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:58 pm

1) The same can be said with Maschine. The only benefit of Maschine in browsing is that it has tags, but then of course, you have to tag all of your sounds. It also allows browsing of Komplete presets, so if you want that, then the Browsing experience might be better on Maschine. However, the mouse will beat the experience on either device.

2) If you only need sampling features and you already have a Maschine and like that workflow, then no, you shouldn't buy Push.

3) Maschine is ok, but Push 2 is fantastic for sequencing drums with the 32 step sequencer right in front of you always. I find it much better than Maschine's step sequencing mode.

4) I am a pianist and trying out different finger patterns on Push 2 for instruments is a wonderful way to be creative in a new way. Push 2 is an instrument - you have to learn how to play it and use it for what it is. It's like saying as a keyboard player, the guitar is uncomfortable.

5) Your MIDI keyboard probably isn't auto-mapping to Ableton though.

I have a Maschine - it's cool, but Push 2 with Ableton is so far and beyond the workflow of Maschine. Maschine's software pales in comparison with Ableton and the way Push 2 integrates with Ableton is far superior. It's amazing - but it might not be the right thing for you.

Tagor
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Tagor » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:21 pm

Lignus wrote:When I produce music, my eyes are fixed on the monitor even though I have my Push 2 in front of me. Most of the work is done by mouse and keyboard shortcuts and my MIDI keyboard. I force my self to use the Push but it feels like I can just do those with other way easily.

What do you guys think? I am sure that there should be amazing feature on this thing but I just can't seem to find it...
Do you guys think I just need to spend more time with Push 2?
YES - i needed also some time to get warm with PUSH, and as non-pianist it offers a lot in Melodies, Scales, Fingerdrumming ect...

Just try to script a Track via ClyphX to follow the Songflow and push the Mode`s automatically in the surface-mode you need.
Then your Push will get a prior midi-input Powerplant and big parts of your Tacks mayb just stay empty because you will do your Tracks
LIVE.

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:05 pm

Lignus wrote:
What do you guys think? I am sure that there should be amazing feature on this thing but I just can't seem to find it...
Do you guys think I just need to spend more time with Push 2?
It's about work flow. Unfortunately Maschine and Live work flows to some extent seem exclusive to each other. You seem content with the Maschine work flow and maybe you don't need the deep integration that Live and Push offers. But that integration is what it's all about and Maschine can't replace that as it's more or less an island in Live. Note I don't use Maschine but two of my musical partners do.
Make some music!

lovelight
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by lovelight » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:34 pm

answer to why Push 2 is useful !

1 browsing presets can be quite quick if you make your own instrument preset racks

2 sampling is fantastic with the new simpler

3 drum seq quite cool and easy

4 pad playing with the scales is awesome if you arent a pro on keys, plus its a cool way to learn scales

5 knobs are touch sensitive, and informative with the cool screen

6 playing live or perform its great with all the parameters you can see and control

win 10, 64 bit, 16 gb ram, intel 8xcore i7-4790 cpu 3.60zh, propellerhead balance

https://www.facebook.com/AbletonPushVstRacks/

http://lovelight.biz/

Machinesworking
Posts: 11141
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:32 pm

If you own Maschine then yes, Push is pretty much just doing the same things, and in many cases clunkier.
Maschine Studio wise, the preset browsing is far better than Push and better than using a mouse.

In my case I own Maschine an SLMKII and Push. The SLMKII and Maschine pretty much reduce all cool features of Push to the Session View launchpad control.

Going forward I have to say that NI's method is the better way. The presets you create in Maschine or the Komplete Control software are not dependent on the software, so a patch made in Massive or Zebra etc. does not require you to own Maschine or even have Zebra wrapped in the Komplete software etc.

You switch to Bitwig or Fruity Loops and you're going to lose all your 'Racks' and all the assigned controllers etc. that Push offers. This is the big let down of Push integration. The main advantage is the advanced Simpler control, but you have to be interested in Simpler in the first place.....

Personally I'm a bit disappointed at how much Push 2 and 1 concentrate on song creation over performance. Live's biggest feature over other DAWs is being ignored in favor of it's 'mac like' UI experience. I look at Simpler and wonder why it took them this long to get pitch and time stretching? and why on a modern computer anyone would want to use it over Kontakt or UVI's Raven?

Chingy
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:57 pm

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Chingy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:41 pm

I disagree (and yes, I have a Maschine). The only, literally only, thing I find better in Maschine is the preset browsing due to the tag system. Apart from that, everything is better in Push.

- Step sequencing
- MIDI editing
- Recording
- Automation
- Keyboard mode
- Screen (at least compared to the MK2)

Yes, it works best with Ableton, but that workflow is far beyond anything else for song creation.

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:45 pm

Machinesworking wrote:If you own Maschine then yes, Push is pretty much just doing the same things, and in many cases clunkier.
Maschine Studio wise, the preset browsing is far better than Push and better than using a mouse.
What my Maschine using friends complain about is the lack of deep integration (Both have Push 1s too) in terms of song and pattern structure. If we sidestep instrument integration, where I hope Maschine is on top with any NI instrument, Maschine hardly has deep integration with Live. Or do you mean it does?

You're probably correct about presets. Ableton should just ask NI to let them use their system even inside Live. Alternatively both should support an open system.
Make some music!

Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:48 pm

@Machinesworking and @Chingy, how does Maschine work with the Komplete synths for real time control and programming of sounds compared to Push? Assuming you have Komplete.
Make some music!

Chingy
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:57 pm

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Chingy » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:27 am

Stromkraft wrote:@Machinesworking and @Chingy, how does Maschine work with the Komplete synths for real time control and programming of sounds compared to Push? Assuming you have Komplete.
It's pre-mapped to certain controls, so in that way, it is better for Komplete - but then Push 2 is better for Ableton synths. Ultimately, the mouse is better for deeper sound design in both cases.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11141
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:37 am

Chingy wrote:I disagree

- Screen (at least compared to the MK2)

Yes, it works best with Ableton, but that workflow is far beyond anything else for song creation.
Maschine Studio is the way to go with Maschine if you're comparing the two.
I don't think anyone would have any issues with the screens in Maschine Studio. :)
You of course named things you like better, but let's talk drum machine aye?
Maschine by far IMO.

I agree it's Instrument integration isn't that great, but again presets created in Maschine can be used outside of Maschine, Live, and Komplete Control. Mostly like I mentioned if you have Maschine and an SLMKII, Push's Live integration is mediocre since those two cover most of the things we're talking about.
Step Record is crap on all but integrated Maschine packs and expansions, Push IMO sucks just as much for instruments in Step record, and is worse in terms of drum machine step recording. ( limited velocities )...
Stromkraft wrote:@Machinesworking and @Chingy, how does Maschine work with the Komplete synths for real time control and programming of sounds compared to Push? Assuming you have Komplete.
It's 100% integrated. Caveat, I like using Maschine as a drum machine, so although I think they did a great job I mostly like it for FX integration, and the occasional super simple melody line. I would much rather use a DAW for recording MIDI for VI's etc. Just easier to mix etc. The on board mixer in Maschine is great, and IMO completely eliminates the need to set up audio tracks for individual parts in Live etc. I would buy into Komplete Control more, but I'm really liking the latest Live template in the Remote SL MKII, and NI don't offer that.
To the other point you asked. DAW integration is odd for Maschine, it relies on VSTi MIDI out to work, regular MIDI is reserved for the 16 pads, so AU is clunky and not great for improvising scenes etc. With VSTi MIDI out you can perform Scenes in real time recording notes into Live etc. You can of course compose the entire arrangement in Maschine and mix it all in Maschine with VST plug ns etc. so there's not any real need to import which is good, because Maschine is a little like a VSTi Drum Rack in that each pad is it's own embedded sampler instrument or VSTi, and has it's own MIDI channel.
IMO anyway, like what Tarekith has mentioned before the Maschien Studio is the way to go for having elegant solutions to these things. It's IMO even easier to mix in Maschine than Live so importing isn't necessary.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11141
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:49 am

Chingy wrote:
Stromkraft wrote:@Machinesworking and @Chingy, how does Maschine work with the Komplete synths for real time control and programming of sounds compared to Push? Assuming you have Komplete.
It's pre-mapped to certain controls, so in that way, it is better for Komplete - but then Push 2 is better for Ableton synths. Ultimately, the mouse is better for deeper sound design in both cases.
The Live instruments, that's all due to Live. The SLMKII here calls up every parameter in an Analog preset just like Push does. MOstly I think of that stuff as more for live performance, whether Push, Komplete Control/Maschine, or any of the other 'most used parameters' systems out there. I give Ableton mass credit for getting deep with their own instruments in terms of Push, SLMKII etc. pots and LED screens.

login
Posts: 1822
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:41 am

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by login » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:10 am

So push isn't useful because you know to use other gear better? worst argument ever.

Check your logic bro.

Machinesworking
Posts: 11141
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:59 am

login wrote:So push isn't useful because you know to use other gear better? worst argument ever.

Check your logic bro.
Not at all. Push isn't as useful to people who have similar alternatives.
I think we can all agree that Push without a good controller keyboard or controller percussion style system like Maschine would seem like a godsend, but if you're comfortable on a piano style keybed, and have similar devices to Push already, it's going to seem redundant. In my case it's main purposes are Launchpad style Session View control and as a huge drum controller for Maschine percussion instrument patches in VSTs like Kontakt, Battery, SSD, Attack etc.

Beyond things like whether you can use patches in Push in other DAWs, real differences between it and other controllers etc. the rest is pretty subjective wouldn't you agree?

irrelevance
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

Re: Am I the only one that feels like Push 2 is useless?

Post by irrelevance » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:11 am

I would agree that if you have no idea how to leverage Live for your music making that Push would be useless in your hands. Changing DAWs isn't as easy as the software makers pushing for your cross-grade cash want you to believe, expect to put in hundreds of hours of use and study to to get your muscle memory to a point were you can freely create and not refer to manuals/forums in other words; find your 'flow'
Once you have a grasp of Live it is then that you might want to consider how best control the functionality it offers in order to shape the listening experience.
In short 3 months IME is nowhere near long enough to consider yourself proficient. It took me at about 3 years to get to that point of flow in Live having changed over from using cubase for years

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