Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

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Bruce Richardson
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 7:16 am

Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by Bruce Richardson » Mon May 18, 2020 7:49 am

Hi folks,

I have just refreshed my license and purchased a Push 2. I split my time between composing and live improvisational/filmscore performances. I really dig the Push 2, but there are some real opportunities for live performance enhancement. I am late to the game, I realize, but I have a fairly good background in this arena. I welcome feedback on these thoughts, and in particular, to know if I'm missing something. I've read the "whitepaper" released on Push 2 capabilities. I guess I was a little surprised by it, in that I can't tell whether some of the features I would have expected are even possible. So, here goes.

PEDAL POLARITY

I'm sure this has been discussed ad nauseum. But why is this not a Setup toggle? There is (apparently, although it doesn't work) some rumored ability that the Push 2 can read this from a depressed pedal at "plug in" time. Wouldn't a simple toggle solve this?

SCALE

I was really excited about the SCALE functions, and in particular, the ability to "fold" the display into particular modes. But my expectation was that the software/hardware would communicate on this. In other words, I expected to be able to program the Push 2's state via the software.

Example: Say I wanted the Push to put itself into a particular scale/mode (just as it can be set up in the hardware) but by feeding it this information from a sequence. Say in my example, I want to have a performance of "Giant Steps," and when it comes time to tap out a solo on the Push, for the Key and Mode to be changing per bar (or in this case half-bar) from a pre-sequenced instruction set.

You could do this with either the scale plugin, or the Max version of that function. But you don't get the Push's "folding" behavior, and you also don't get an efficient use of the pads. In other words, you can't really use this amazing funcionality (within the push) in a way that sets you up for using the pads to their fullest capability.

That was a little hard to articulate. Hopefully you understand what I am saying.

CAN THE PUSH PULL?

This is somewhat related to the previous phenomenon. I should have read the spec, I guess, to have more tempered expectations. It's a very nice controller, and is really enjoyable to work with. But I was just expecting the software to be able to "Push" to the push much more, so that I could essentially never really have to do a lot of manipulating on the Push surface if I had planned out a performance scenario. Rather, that Live would be equally adept at "pushing the Push," and that by creating a structure for an improvisational performance piece, the Push would be ready for my input.

WASTED ENCODERS

Scenario: I noticed this with a Waves soft-synth. In NOTE view, I can sometimes get one rotary encoders to map. Sometimes none. Why can't I use all those rotary encoders and map them?

This also somewhat confuses me vis-a-vis the SCALE question. The Factory synths seem to be able to map parameters back to the Push. So, why can't the SCALE devices, map the Push Pads in the same way the on-board SCALE selection maps the Push pads?

You might be thinking...well, you can indeed automate those scale plugins, so what's the issue?

It's this: The Push NOTE view is going to be stuck in SOME key and some mode. Changing the key/mode in the software may in essence filter the same notes...but not with the same layout that the "Push native" setting does. You'd have to change both in alignment, which defeats the idea of being able to program it in the software and just have the Push automagically keep the pads in the proper key/mode for the moments.

What I want: For the software to automate the Push-native key/scale behavior, as if I have four very fast hands. I was literally shocked that this was not possible, or wasn't how someone would have thought was the obvious way to make it behave. That anything you can set the Push to do from the Push, the software should be able to sequence TO the Push. How is that not what one would expect in a purpose made piece of hardware that was really expensive?


OK>>>

Those are my three general category questions. My biggest fear when I purchased this was that a Push 3 might be around the corner. But it seems to me that the Push 2 hardware has a huge backlog of potential which has not been realized to date. Maybe it's a work in progress?

I would say I'm about 60% happy with it, and 40% very surprised that a whole bunch of people have not had the thoughts I just expressed. It's not possible to be cranking the scale/mode entry constantly if you're doing harmonically complex stuff. To make it an effective playground, the software really needs to be able to set up that NOTE mode in real time. Am I missing something painfully obvious? I can't be the first person asking these questions.

Please weigh in with your thoughts. Am I communicating this clearly? Does anyone else find that working the way I am describing is possible by some means I have not yet discovered? It seems to me that what I am describing should be technically feasible, and would greatly enhance live performance capabilities...being able to pre-program some state changes in the Push in which could be driven by silent loops in scene changes.

Best to you all,
Bruce

Bruce Richardson
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 7:16 am

Re: Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by Bruce Richardson » Sun May 24, 2020 9:31 pm

Just bumping...

Does anyone associated with Push development monitor this forum? Am I making any sense in the above comments?

I am really struggling with the money I paid, versus the utility and flexibility of the unit. This is not my first rodeo, by far, in controller/software implementation, and I have been working with MIDI literally since MIDI began. In some ways, my old Juno-106 keyboard (in the secret SysEX i/o mode) is actually a more robust controller, even though it has barely a fraction of the Push 2's potential. I feel like I am using a half-developed product.

Am I just wrong about this? Is there anyone from Albeton monitoring that can potentially address some of these very obvious shortcomings, versus being able to "push" the various scale/mode grids backwards into the controller so a complex harmonic palette could actually shift itself in real time?

Tarekith
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Re: Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by Tarekith » Sun May 24, 2020 11:55 pm

The forums are watched by many people at Ableton, but you're not going to get a reply about features that may or may not be implemented in the future.

Bruce Richardson
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 7:16 am

Re: Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by Bruce Richardson » Tue May 26, 2020 3:29 am

Do you know any method of actually having an exchange? I am new to Ableton, but not new at all to this business or the development side of it. There has to be some means by which users can directly converse with the development team, or at least have some reasonable exchange. Do you have any contacts?

Best regards,
Bruce

dna598
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Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am

Re: Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by dna598 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 am

I like letting off some steam every couple of years on this, but i gotta be realistic. It's pretty clear from the the amount of time passed, and lack of any small meaningful improvements over the course of nearly a decade, that we are stuck with it the way it is. It appears development was completed on Push the day the hardware was released. And that goes back to V1. I even learnt another DAW just to use it "fully" because other devs have copied and improved on what Ableton started. The Ableton monopoly (even on their own hardware) is over, and they only have themselves to blame. Forgive me for being extra cynical, but i don't think they are bothered. We already paid for the hardware.
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection

8E
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Re: Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by 8E » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:37 am

dna598 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 am
The Ableton monopoly (even on their own hardware) is over, and they only have themselves to blame.
How so? Just curious.

OTOH, Bruce Richardson - I agree fully with you.
MacOS Mojave MacBook Pro (15", Mid 2015), 2,5 GHz i7, 16GB RAM
Live Suite 10-latest + Push 1
U-PHORIA UMC204HD

dna598
Posts: 855
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am

Re: Push 2 Performance: Some Opportunities...please weigh in

Post by dna598 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:10 pm

8E wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:37 am
dna598 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 am
The Ableton monopoly (even on their own hardware) is over, and they only have themselves to blame.
How so? Just curious.
Not worded brilliantly, but just a butthurt way of pointing out that Push can be used with other DAW's, and that development on Live+Push has been lacking. :lol:

Actually there is no "blame" to go around. At least not for the manufacturer, as it just means more possible hardware sales at this late stage.
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection

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