Recording Push Drums in Arrangement Mode - issue / idea!

[lyovino]

Okay, here is a very simple work around that I just bumped into while experimenting. Simply duplicate the drum track in question and delete the clip from it, now hit arrangement record from session view and hit push's session record switch. As your clips are recording into arrange you can now Record a new pass (drum jam) which will not be overdubbed but will track to its own duplicated channel in the arrange, and of course you will wind up with a new clip in session on the duplicated channel. From what I can see this appears to be the only way to achieve what the OP was questioning… while this is not new to many of us here and something that we all use but in other ways, this is simply just a workaround that works!

[NoSonic822]

ther is no way to overdub directly over a loop that is being played like when the record to arrangement is not turned on.

........yessss....yes there is...you click the overdub button on......

[jackson88]

ther is no way to overdub directly over a loop that is being played like when the record to arrangement is not turned on.

........yessss....yes there is...you click the overdub button on......

yes yes I know it has always been ON I never even turn it off! but still no overdub while recording to arrangement mode unless your recording to the loop! just check out the guys video!

[jackson88]

Okay, here is a very simple work around that I just bumped into while experimenting. Simply duplicate the drum track in question and delete the clip from it, now hit arrangement record from session view and hit push's session record switch. As your clips are recording into arrange you can now Record a new pass (drum jam) which will not be overdubbed but will track to its own duplicated channel in the arrange, and of course you will wind up with a new clip in session on the duplicated channel. From what I can see this appears to be the only way to achieve what the OP was questioning… while this is not new to many of us here and something that we all use but in other ways, this is simply just a workaround that works!

i was thinking more in the direction of using rewire to tranfser midi from 1 ableton instance to a 2nd ableton instance that has midi set to IN on all channels all the time.
so basicly ur playing all instruments in ableton(1) and ableton(2) records al incoming midi to arrangement mode

[elzinko]

Inversoundzzz, what is your hardware configuration? Do you use Push or any controller?

In fact we want to be able to record (to arrangement) an already recorded clip PLUS what we are playing live with the same instrument, BUT without having to record/add notes into the same clip again (overdub).

The use case is :
With an existing clip playing (drum with kit/snare for example), it is possible to push pads while the clip is playing, so that you can add more sound WITHOUT record them in the clip, just play them.
As soon as you click the arrangement record button, this capability disappear (the pad is unactive). UNLESS you click (on Push) the CLIP (not arrangement) record button AGAIN.
BUT this is not what we want because this action (clip record again) add notes into the existing clip we want to keep the same.

This is very disturbing because jam is possible without clicking on the arrangement record button...

A workaround consist to have 2 tracks with the same instrument. One track to play already existing clips, another to play live.
But what if you need instrument effect (bus or track effect) ? This is problematic because if you have two tracks, you want to be able to have a macro on the instrument you are playing, and you want that this macro can control both instruments effects. A workaround is to use some M4Live plugin that allow user to control other tracks parameter from one track.

[elzinko]

I sent two emails to Ableton Support and these are the answers :

FIRST EMAIL


Hi Ableton team.
[...]
I have a specific question i cannot solve even when posting in forums.
I play Ableton for live sets, so I have pre built scenes and live instruments to play during my live.

What I try to do is to launch scenes, play at the same time, and record everything in arrangment view. I use push to play live, and when i launch record, pads are no more responsive. this is a post that details clearly what I try to explain :
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=193594&p=1613241#p1613241

I have a trick to bypass this problem, I duplicate my instrument, a i use a bus for both instruments effects, but this is too complicated to manage.

Could you please tell me if this is a normal behavior, and give me an explanation (I am developper so dont worry you can give me technical purpose).
If this can be done, will it be planned in futur beta/release.
[...]



[...]
Thank you for getting in touch with Ableton Support.

We are sorry to hear about your issues with Ableton Live and Push.

In fact, the behaviour you are experiencing is normal, since recording into Arrangement needs to overcome Session recording. Basically all the Tracks with Clips in Session View are "blocked" for Session recording, once you start Global Recording.

There is a workaround though, assuming I understood what you want to do in a Live situation. What if you duplicate the Tracks you also want to play live? These duplicates will work just fine for live playing while recording into Arrangement.

Hopefully this helps.
[...]
Ableton Support


SECOND EMAIL


Thanks a lot for your reactive reply.

Your suggestion is what I usualy do. But in Live situation, i want to be able to manage both track effects, or mute both track for example and all that from only one track which is not possible without using third part Max free plugins and/or audio bus tracks. It is really anoying and a bit heavy.

What I dont understand is why "all the Tracks with Clips in Session View are "blocked" for Session recording, once you start Global Recording".

To resume, when i'am in global recording, I am not recording a particular clip, but all what is played. It concerns existing clips (this is ok) and what I play live (not possible). When I am in this situation (with my push), the track is armed because im on that track, the global record is armed but the clip recording button is not armed (not sur).

So my question is : Is it technically for you to allow overdubbing only in the arrangment view but not in the playing clip? What I guess is that it is impossible for you to record in arrangment view without overdubing in the clip that is played, certainly because of the duality model between arrangment and session views, but i'm not sure.

Could you please confirm me if it is technicaly impossible to do for your developers or if it is a functionnality choice?

Again, in my point of view, it would be a real improvment for live players if it is technicaly possible. What I suggest is something really "natural" that musicians are experiencing with real instruments and loopers.
[...]



Thank you for getting back in touch with Ableton Support.

I am very sorry that is has taken so long to answer your question, apologies for that.

Since I am also not a native English speaker maybe I did not make myself understandable.

In regard of your question, the issue is a design issue, not a technical limitation. We can not really disclose any of the future implementations nor features in this regard. By now the Session and the Arrangement recordings are handled as to different processes, which are limited in terms of parallel functionality.

Hopefully this clarifies.

[jackson88]

duplicating all my tracks will overload my CPU there has to be an other workaround

[elzinko]

You could send an email to Ableton Support so that they could take this issue more in consideration.

[NoSonic822]

Okay, here is a very simple work around that I just bumped into while experimenting. Simply duplicate the drum track in question and delete the clip from it, now hit arrangement record from session view and hit push's session record switch. As your clips are recording into arrange you can now Record a new pass (drum jam) which will not be overdubbed but will track to its own duplicated channel in the arrange, and of course you will wind up with a new clip in session on the duplicated channel. From what I can see this appears to be the only way to achieve what the OP was questioning… while this is not new to many of us here and something that we all use but in other ways, this is simply just a workaround that works!

i was thinking more in the direction of using rewire to tranfser midi from 1 ableton instance to a 2nd ableton instance that has midi set to IN on all channels all the time.
so basicly ur playing all instruments in ableton(1) and ableton(2) records al incoming midi to arrangement mode

.......yes, you would duplicate the track.....that's simple isnt it? then you can record completely new clips while the old clip plays.......the reason you can't do that in one track...like i mentioned is becuase Live only lets you play one clip at a time in one track........that's why you can have multiple tracks with different clips in each of them.........the solution is having a duplicate track so one records but one plays.....it's just like having two differnt tracks with different instruments on them...except theyre the exact same instead.....

[NoSonic822]

duplicating all my tracks will overload my CPU there has to be an other workaround

yea but why are you duplicating all your tracks...it's just completely bizarre.......that;s why you have 2 computers.....with the same set on each of them....like 2 different musicians with 2 instruments in real life.....

what you're claiming to be such a problem...is just unrealistic application for a DAW.....

[jackson88]

duplicating all my tracks will overload my CPU there has to be an other workaround

yea but why are you duplicating all your tracks...it's just completely bizarre.......that;s why you have 2 computers.....with the same set on each of them....like 2 different musicians with 2 instruments in real life.....

what you're claiming to be such a problem...is just unrealistic application for a DAW.....

I dont think its that unrealistic. i think its something they should and could definitely fix in the future without having it to compromise the overall performance of ableton. i dont see why it should work ok in session view with out recording to arrangement and as soon as you start recording to arrangement it blocks it out. but lets it through again only if your recording to a loop.
duplicating all tracks is indeed bizarre especially if your running 18vst synths and 6 drum channels.
what ur suggesting to get another computer is even crazier. id rather go to another daw or rewire my midi notes from another daw to ableton and have all my tracks set to midi IN and so record al incoming notes to arrangement.

[NoSonic822]

i mean use another computer, like if youre performing on stage....other performer would havea nother laptop, andyoud both have the same session going.

[elzinko]

I agree with jackson88, I don't think using 2 computers is a common practice to perform live. Anb what if you want to apply same effect modification to 2 tracks on 2 different computers ? What if you use program change, clyphx, PXT-Live, ... ?
A sent another message to Ableton Support, and maybe if you do the same we have more chances that they take this issue in consideration.
I will call them tomorrow to have a more comprehensive discussion with technical support team to be sure they understand the use case.

[NoSonic822]

I agree with jackson88, I don't think using 2 computers is a common practice to perform live. Anb what if you want to apply same effect modification to 2 tracks on 2 different computers ? What if you use program change, clyphx, PXT-Live, ... ?
A sent another message to Ableton Support, and maybe if you do the same we have more chances that they take this issue in consideration.
I will call them tomorrow to have a more comprehensive discussion with technical support team to be sure they understand the use case.

i'm not talking about you on stage using two computers....im talking about you and another human...using the same project files and same instruments, and being able to play the isntruments differently overtop of eachother.

Live isn't made the way you are thinking it shold be....they already pointed that out in their response to you. It's purposely made that way...to have the session be exclusive from the arrangement....it's not like a shortcoming that they havent figured out how to do yet...it's the way they intend the system to work...if you change that, you'r e changing the entire way that ableton works. besides why would you want to be playing the exact same instrument over top of itself....it's such an unusual thing...unless you are playing in different octaves...which would make one bass and one tenor, or one soprano and one alto.....and then they would just be considered tow diffeent tracks any way......so there would be no issue.

[elzinko]

i'm not talking about you on stage using two computers....im talking about you and another human...using the same project files and same instruments, and being able to play the isntruments differently overtop of eachother.

Actually, i am playing with another person and we use the same project. Howerver I don't have any problem with the fact that he control my already recorded sessions, but what if I want to apply a filter on the instrument. And for 2, 3, ... do I have do do complicated configuration each time? And if I want to be able to modify the already existing clip being played on the other project?

Live isn't made the way you are thinking it shold be....they already pointed that out in their response to you. It's purposely made that way...to have the session be exclusive from the arrangement....it's not like a shortcoming that they havent figured out how to do yet...it's the way they intend the system to work...

In Ableton Response, they say :

is a design issue, not a technical limitation

Maybe i am not well understanding their response

if you change that, you'r e changing the entire way that ableton works. besides why would you want to be playing the exact same instrument over top of itself....it's such an unusual thing...unless you are playing in different octaves...which would make one bass and one tenor, or one soprano and one alto.....and then they would just be considered tow diffeent tracks any way......so there would be no issue.

For example, you want to add playable notes over some existing one, this is a use case among so many. The fact that

it is it's such an unusual thing

is not an argument in favor it should not exist. Many things in Ableton overcome real live situations for musicians, in my opinion

If everybody was saying "well, it's such an unusual thing, ... so there would be no issue" nothing would happen

But this is only my opinion