Max for Live - first impressions?

[synnack]

As for M4L collaboration and patch swapping, surely Ableton's "Share" service will dominate the scene once they get it out of beta.

That is a possiblity yes but it's not a "surely".

The way the share feature is now, everything is associated with a shared Set. There is no way to say "hrm, I wonder if anyone has shared a max for live device that does xyz, let me go look". You'd have to know somehow a device like that is in a particular set and download that set. It's fairly worthless IMHO for device sharing.

Of course, they could always fix that but from my first impression, we need http://www.maxforlive.com to share in a useful way.

Plus, Ableton Share may not be free. Sometimes free may trump easy.

[andrewbrewer]

whar are teh first impresshuns ?

I'm happy with it.

the downside is that there aren't patches to hook in directly to a Live instrument like Operator. it really is just putting max/msp/jitter inside Live. the Live patches are for making GUIs that live in clip view.

patches automap just fine to my APC.

the preset content is pretty damn well done. the patches were definitely made by people that know what they're doing. I shouldn't be surprised but I'm used to seeing stuff made by hobbyists, not C74 employees. a lot can be learned by dissecting those patches.

Preview Mode is great, it lets you pull the patch apart and play with the knobs and whatnots to see how the thing works. this would let you tack on a print box to see what an object is doing.


so, it's not this crazy tool to rewrite Live people have talked about but it is max/msp/jitter bundled inside Live which is GREAT, it was a pain in the ass at time to coordinate max and Live.

[speculation]
I imagine more patches will be released in the future. there are also Live API geeks that could maybe develop hooks into things like Operator.
[/speculation]

I'm just glad the thing was finally released, almost 3 (was it 3?!?!) years of tension has been released.

thank you, kind sir!

[aizo]

First impression:
1.) I have no fucking idea what I'm doing
2.) I have no idea where Max4Live is. I can run it as a standalone app but have no idea or can't find anywhere that tells me that inside Ableton where to start M4L or where to call up the M4L instruments(ie. buffer shuffler).
3.) depressed and feel like an idiot because it's prolly really fucking easy.
4.) Everywhere I search says something about "lessons" but I have yet to find any lessons and my iMac is too retarded to come up with anything.

Using 10.5.8, Ableton 8.08, Downloaded Max4Live two days ago.......upset

[twisted-space]

Using Ableton 8.08,

That's your problem right there.....
From the max for live beta page

1.Download and install the latest beta version of Max 5.1

2.Download and install the latest beta version of Live 8.1 — Max for Live will not work with earlier versions of Live.

I'm not going to say it.

[LOFA]

First impression:
1.) I have no fucking idea what I'm doing
2.) I have no idea where Max4Live is. I can run it as a standalone app but have no idea or can't find anywhere that tells me that inside Ableton where to start M4L or where to call up the M4L instruments(ie. buffer shuffler).
3.) depressed and feel like an idiot because it's prolly really fucking easy.
4.) Everywhere I search says something about "lessons" but I have yet to find any lessons and my iMac is too retarded to come up with anything.

Using 10.5.8, Ableton 8.08, Downloaded Max4Live two days ago.......upset

you are probably also doing what I did wrong- you must first officially join the beta before you can authorize. Don't just dl it and install. What I had to do afterwards was delete all of my live/c74 content and then I was up and running.

Here's the link: https://www.ableton.com/login?url=http% ... rlive/beta

Hope this helps!

[logic_user99]

Ahaha, this thread pleases me. There people were, bangining on about how M4L would be the best thing ever and how they'd buy it no matter what. Then the prices are released along with a very generous public beta, and now it's too expensive and too hard to use! Of course it's a little costly and quite taxing to use at first; it's bloody MAX/MSP.

I think a M4L runtime would be completely pointless and defeat the object of the software; if you want to totally rip apart the workings of Live, build your own shit and run it, get M4L. If you don't want to build or at least learn how that shit works, don't buy it. There's little point in people having it if they're not going to engross themselves in it, IMO. S'why I'm not buying it (aside from the fact I haven't stepped up to 8 yet).

Bravo to Ableton for making the thing available before 2010, and more power to those people who get on board, learn their stuff, and start creating. Everyone else; stop bitching! C'mon, you might like it if you tried it!

[Tone Deft]

Ahaha, this thread pleases me. There people were, bangining on about how M4L would be the best thing ever and how they'd buy it no matter what. Then the prices are released along with a very generous public beta, and now it's too expensive and too hard to use! Of course it's a little costly and quite taxing to use at first; it's bloody MAX/MSP.

I think a M4L runtime would be completely pointless and defeat the object of the software; if you want to totally rip apart the workings of Live, build your own shit and run it, get M4L. If you don't want to build or at least learn how that shit works, don't buy it. There's little point in people having it if they're not going to engross themselves in it, IMO. S'why I'm not buying it (aside from the fact I haven't stepped up to 8 yet).

Bravo to Ableton for making the thing available before 2010, and more power to those people who get on board, learn their stuff, and start creating. Everyone else; stop bitching! C'mon, you might like it if you tried it!

you can't really rip Live apart, you can get values from live through the Live API which would be the next step after getting to know max4Live. with just max4Live as it is you only get knobs and sliders to make a GUI in clip view for what you made.

as it is even with the Live API you can't do anything with Live instruments or effects, there are no hooks directly into Operator, for example.

max4Live puts max/msp/jitter inside Live.



edit - it's only been out to the public for 4 days. give it a few months for the dust to settle. hundreds of people are hitting that learning curve, most aren't sure of the scope or depth of the project yet.

IMO it's too early even for a first impression.

[arctic ranger]

Erm...seems like I opened a can of worms here that I wasn't aware about. Obviously a couple of users have some personal issues with each other - hope you can sort this out between you both.

Getting back to the original point, it seems as though there is a split in opinion between a free/discounted runtime being offered and Max for Live already offering excellent value for money. I think what I'm most concerned about is suddenly not having a basic thing like a dedicated Ableton sequencer now Max has appeared, unless I pay for the whole Max package. My argument isn't that Max for Live is bad value for money (anything but in fact, judging from the reviews I've read elsewhere), but that the users who just want something like a step sequencer in Live could now be forced to pay a whack of money for a tool they are not going to really use.

Do you think this could happen? Now Ableton has a step sequencer in Max, that they won't develop a standalone one for users who don't want to buy into this huge package?

There is a big fear in the Ableton community that the default answer for every feature request will be "just use Max for Live" but I think it is largely unfounded.

I can't speak for Ableton but based on what I have seen in dealing with them for years is that they absolutely understand the need for Ableton Live itself to provide needed functionality core to the product. To help them decide what that base functionality is (if you believe it's a step sequencer) join us on the feature request forum.

I kinda get the feeling that any future requests for live will be made in mfl by the developers. kinda like the ultimate get out of jail free card.
if we want something we will have to buy mfl...then pay for it...im really interested in what is coming out for live9 ...a bunch of mfl presets and more crap to download that we dont need...(but other requests like dual monitor support go unnoticed)

[Tone Deft]

Erm...seems like I opened a can of worms here that I wasn't aware about. Obviously a couple of users have some personal issues with each other - hope you can sort this out between you both.

Getting back to the original point, it seems as though there is a split in opinion between a free/discounted runtime being offered and Max for Live already offering excellent value for money. I think what I'm most concerned about is suddenly not having a basic thing like a dedicated Ableton sequencer now Max has appeared, unless I pay for the whole Max package. My argument isn't that Max for Live is bad value for money (anything but in fact, judging from the reviews I've read elsewhere), but that the users who just want something like a step sequencer in Live could now be forced to pay a whack of money for a tool they are not going to really use.

Do you think this could happen? Now Ableton has a step sequencer in Max, that they won't develop a standalone one for users who don't want to buy into this huge package?

There is a big fear in the Ableton community that the default answer for every feature request will be "just use Max for Live" but I think it is largely unfounded.

I can't speak for Ableton but based on what I have seen in dealing with them for years is that they absolutely understand the need for Ableton Live itself to provide needed functionality core to the product. To help them decide what that base functionality is (if you believe it's a step sequencer) join us on the feature request forum.

I kinda get the feeling that any future requests for live will be made in mfl by the developers. kinda like the ultimate get out of jail free card.
if we want something we will have to buy mfl...then pay for it...im really interested in what is coming out for live9 ...a bunch of mfl presets and more crap to download that we dont need...(but other requests like dual monitor support go unnoticed)

you don't understand the scope of max4Live. give it time.

[LOFA]

I kinda get the feeling that any future requests for live will be made in mfl by the developers. kinda like the ultimate get out of jail free card.
if we want something we will have to buy mfl...then pay for it...im really interested in what is coming out for live9 ...a bunch of mfl presets and more crap to download that we dont need...(but other requests like dual monitor support go unnoticed)

Sometimes intuitions are helpful. In this case I think you are just wrong. Cycling74 will give mfl what it needs, max-wise, and ableton will give new Live content both to C74 to hook into, and for non-mfl users to work with.

[arctic ranger]

I kinda get the feeling that any future requests for live will be made in mfl by the developers. kinda like the ultimate get out of jail free card.
if we want something we will have to buy mfl...then pay for it...im really interested in what is coming out for live9 ...a bunch of mfl presets and more crap to download that we dont need...(but other requests like dual monitor support go unnoticed)

Sometimes intuitions are helpful. In this case I think you are just wrong. Cycling74 will give mfl what it needs, max-wise, and ableton will give new Live content both to C74 to hook into, and for non-mfl users to work with.

i really hope you are right...
it dont matter anymore to me. i just got a apc40 and am trying to make it work for me...i love it!!
got live 8 but still rocking 7!!

out

[leedsquietman]

There's totally a market for M4L runtime, should Ableton/Cycling 74 decide to make it available.

Logic User - your attitude to pay up the full price and use it, or don't bother is a bit like saying 'write your own VST or AU plugins and if you can't do it, then don't have VST or AU plugins'. That attitude is a FAIL IMO. Did you write a VST or AU plugin like Zebra or Massive or Algorithmix's Red linear phase EQ retailing at nearly $2000 recently, or did you buy a version from a store, which is in effect a run time VST/AU ??? (Synthmaker/Synthedit does not count !).

There are going to be some amazing, useful things written for Max4Live by people who know how to use it, which will be beneficial to many, especially Max retards like me. ALready there are workarounds for recording session view automation in M4L, a feature which most Live users desperately want. I'd pay for a run time version, and then if the bug bit me, I could upgrade to the full version at my leisure. There are people who DO want to learn Max but in their own time and once they have gotten familiar using M4L devices in Live, many will feel more comfortable and pony up later. To a noob, it's a bit like being given the thousands of components to make a rocket and an 10,000 page user manual and saying 'OK son, there ya go. You should have that up and running in no time ...' erm, .... riiiigghhhht go most of us non master of Physics and Mathematics users.

[Pasha]

I've read all the posts here and there are a lot of good starting points for several side discussion. I'm max retarded too probably or I was dreaming of a task I had in mind that did not find its way in reality. Back to the manuals trying to walk trough from scratch.

However is M4L a change of strategy in Ableton?
Live 8 could be the last of its kind. With M4L Ableton could create new devices/fx
by using M4L and avoid changing Live code and include a much wanted runtime
with the next Live version.
Have you ever thought of this?
What do you think, science fiction or next reality?

- Best
- Pasha

[Johnisfaster]

I've read all the posts here and there are a lot of good starting points for several side discussion. I'm max retarded too probably or I was dreaming of a task I had in mind that did not find its way in reality. Back to the manuals trying to walk trough from scratch.

However is M4L a change of strategy in Ableton?
Live 8 could be the last of its kind. With M4L Ableton could create new devices/fx
by using M4L and avoid changing Live code and include a much wanted runtime
with the next Live version.
Have you ever thought of this?
What do you think, science fiction or next reality?

- Best
- Pasha

theres a lot of money to be made by advertising your "next big update release" and plastering it all over the net and magazines, all the sudden theirs big banners up at guitar center saying "ableton 12" is almost here!

I don't see ableton missing out on that kind of action, however I could see some possible differences in the type of updates we expect

[4/4]

in keeping with the current business model, you can bet your last dollar that additional functions added to M4L will be paid upgrades which in turn will require first having a paid upgrade for Ableton Live aswell.

cha-CHING.

Besides the dough, it'll cost you time in bug-reports if you upgrade earlier than 6ish months.