[OT] Man-made global warming : myth or fact?

[crumhorn]

e) through gradual attrition. Decreasing longevity, old people dying in the winter, increased infant mortality (particularly in the third world where western governments don't really care what happens, as long as it doesn't threaten them), skirmishes over fuel and water, famine and drought, etc.

Meanwhile the military and economic super powers (same thing really) will suppress the weaker nations and help themselves to natural resources - all in the name of "Freedom".

[Emissary]

a) The Education and the understanding of all human kind that it is in our best interests not to breed like rats
b) Government sponsored sterilisation of certain sections of society ( The Poor)
c) Through a mass collapse of our culture and infrastructure.

I'll leave it with you to debate which is the most likely to occur.

There's at least one more possibility, which is:

d) We recognize the cliff we are hurtling towards in time to shift our methods of production and consumption and avoid the worst of the pain.

I'll leave it with you to debate how likely that is- but personally, I know which one I'm fighting for.

Thats choice a)

But this requires a level of human understanding never before witnessed by our species. what your proposing is that within the next 10 years (for that is how long peak oil will take to truly take effect) we have to

a) Rebuild the top soil of our food producing land (because through its destruction food now ONLY grows with petrochemical fertiliser, and last i heard nuclear waste isn't too good for the soil)

b) Retool the entire worlds Farming machinery at immense cost and energy (which we are running out of) to run off electricity (thus tripling the strain an already dying energy grid)

c) Everyone buys brand new Electrical cars at huge expense so they can get to work and keep civilisation running. This causes wages to go up or living standards to go down (both of which are disastrous with a depletion of energy) If the farming machinery didn't collapse the grid then this surely would

d) replace the use of plastic (as it will become too expensive) with some new wonder material.

e) Replace the entire energy infrastructure of developed nations to withstand the huge amounts of extra energy consumption from electric cars

f) Lower the Living standards of 90% of the worlds people by about 70% just to stop total collapse.

or a more likely scenario

Prices will skyrocket, food will become too expensive, many many people will die, except those at the top and those that have prepared. A new civilisation is built from the wreckage with a single goal to start mining the planets in our solar system for more resources to bring about a 2nd renaissance of humanity. You can laugh at that last line all you want but just because it sounds like a sci-fi film doesn't mean its not the next logical step for humanity.

[Nicknackerski]

a) Rebuild the top soil of our food producing land (because through its destruction food now ONLY grows with petrochemical fertiliser, and last i heard nuclear waste isn't too good for the soil)
Because of overpopulation not lack of oil like in your original argument (complete with oil graphs!)

b) Retool the entire worlds Farming machinery at immense cost and energy (which we are running out of) to run off electricity (thus tripling the strain an already dying energy grid)
Yes over time, with hydrogen fuel cell machinery (not electric, Hydrogen! As in Hydrogen is the fuel! This is derived from hydrogen made via electricity produced from Pebble Bed reactors (Uranium, Plutonium or Thorium which can be used to produce the hydrogen ) The problem is that electricity is needed to produce Hydrogen in the first place hence reactors as a suggestion

c) Everyone buys brand new Electrical cars at huge expense so they can get to work and keep civilisation running. This causes wages to go up or living standards to go down (both of which are disastrous with a depletion of energy) If the farming machinery didn't collapse the grid then this surely would
Over time Yes! not all in one day, but over a period of decades etc. Also.......NOT ELECTRIC!

d) replace the use of plastic (as it will become too expensive) with some new wonder material.
I totally agree with this, also shit loads of other materials (asphalt for instance) but it is possible do you agree

e) Replace the entire energy infrastructure of developed nations to withstand the huge amounts of extra energy consumption from electric cars
Once again you're totally right this is a major problem (with electric cars not hydrogen fuel cell cars)

f) Lower the Living standards of 90% of the worlds people by about 70% just to stop total collapse.

or a more likely scenario

Prices will skyrocket, food will become too expensive, many many people will die, except those at the top and those that have prepared. A new civilisation is built from the wreckage with a single goal to start mining the planets in our solar system for more resources to bring about a 2nd renaissance of humanity. You can laugh at that last line all you want but just because it sounds like a sci-fi film doesn't mean its not the next logical step for humanity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH! How is this possible

I'm giving up now got to do some work boo!
thanks Steve.

[Green Lemon]

a) The Education and the understanding of all human kind that it is in our best interests not to breed like rats
b) Government sponsored sterilisation of certain sections of society ( The Poor)
c) Through a mass collapse of our culture and infrastructure.

I'll leave it with you to debate which is the most likely to occur.

There's at least one more possibility, which is:

d) We recognize the cliff we are hurtling towards in time to shift our methods of production and consumption and avoid the worst of the pain.

I'll leave it with you to debate how likely that is- but personally, I know which one I'm fighting for.

Thats choice a)

But this requires a level of human understanding never before witnessed by our species. what your proposing is that within the next 10 years (for that is how long peak oil will take to truly take effect) we have to

a) Rebuild the top soil of our food producing land (because through its destruction food now ONLY grows with petrochemical fertiliser, and last i heard nuclear waste isn't too good for the soil)

b) Retool the entire worlds Farming machinery at immense cost and energy (which we are running out of) to run off electricity (thus tripling the strain an already dying energy grid)

c) Everyone buys brand new Electrical cars at huge expense so they can get to work and keep civilisation running. This causes wages to go up or living standards to go down (both of which are disastrous with a depletion of energy) If the farming machinery didn't collapse the grid then this surely would

d) replace the use of plastic (as it will become too expensive) with some new wonder material.

e) Replace the entire energy infrastructure of developed nations to withstand the huge amounts of extra energy consumption from electric cars

f) Lower the Living standards of 90% of the worlds people by about 70% just to stop total collapse.

or a more likely scenario

Prices will skyrocket, food will become too expensive, many many people will die, except those at the top and those that have prepared. A new civilisation is built from the wreckage with a single goal to start mining the planets in our solar system for more resources to bring about a 2nd renaissance of humanity. You can laugh at that last line all you want but just because it sounds like a sci-fi film doesn't mean its not the next logical step for humanity.

Yeah, I am aware its bad odds but I've got nothing else to do than fight this fight.

On mining other planets- why not evolve away of living that doesn't use non renewable minerals? Seems more cost efficient than sending rockets all over. I don't think there would be a net gain in the payload of one rocket , honestly. But that's speculation at its finest.

[Green Lemon]

e) through gradual attrition. Decreasing longevity, old people dying in the winter, increased infant mortality (particularly in the third world where western governments don't really care what happens, as long as it doesn't threaten them), skirmishes over fuel and water, famine and drought, etc.

Meanwhile the military and economic super powers (same thing really) will suppress the weaker nations and help themselves to natural resources - all in the name of "Freedom".

That seems a little too on the mark for comfort.

[LoopStationZebra]

Wow. Emissary on a Roll! lol.

Me? I'm just hoping that Zombies will somehow be a part of this end of the world equation. What's an apocalypse without zombies, ffs?

World War Z, baby!

[Emissary]

e) through gradual attrition. Decreasing longevity, old people dying in the winter, increased infant mortality (particularly in the third world where western governments don't really care what happens, as long as it doesn't threaten them), skirmishes over fuel and water, famine and drought, etc.

Meanwhile the military and economic super powers (same thing really) will suppress the weaker nations and help themselves to natural resources - all in the name of "Freedom".

That seems a little too on the mark for comfort.

Well yeah thats excatly whats happening (option C). Its the prelude to the collapse, at the moment we are pillaging helpless developing nations, and when they are run dry, we'll turn on each other (developed nations) As The populations of each country cry out that they need more Food/Water/Energy, it will be a fuck off war that will be the end of our current cultural ideals. People will emerge from the ashes (as they always do) and go about fucking it up all over again , only this time with no Energy apart from that which nature spits from the sun.

[Green Lemon]

The trouble with debates like this (and the evolution "debate") is that 99% of people aren't qualified to have an opinion, but don't let that get in their way

Thats fine and you're totally correct (including me also).

All i was trying to prove/debate/suggest is that all life on earth is not necessary going to go towards whatever statistic's or theories may suggest.
I cannot explain exactly how Nuke fuel is produced from the sun but, that does not mean it ain't true. It is true (fact)

Indirectly, the sun or other stars are responsible for ALL our energy. Even nuclear energy comes from a star because the uranium atoms used in nuclear energy were created in the fury of a nova i.e. a star exploding.

Many thanks.
Nick

OK look. Details matter, especially when your'e trying to predict as much as possible for your grandchildren, and especially when credible people are telling you that in 50 years the middle of the USA might be a dust bowl, permanently.

Now you making a flippant statement about how all energy comes from the sun, and then citing nuclear fuels in the very next paragraph- well, it just shows that you are not conversant in the basic science of it! I am not trying to call you out, you're not different than most other people, but this is what gets me is that we're surrounded by people who say "global warming is a hoax", or "intelligent design is science", without even the most basic grasp of what they are talking about.

All energy on earth indeed comes from the sun...except nuclear energy! Minerals in the earths crust have been around since the earth congealed from a spinning ball of gas 5 billion years go, and they were made, as you pointed out, in stars millions of years before that.

There's a crucial understanding to the phrase "all energy comes from the sun". That energy flow is our allowance. We've been raiding the piggy bank of fossil fuels, we could switch to nuclear for a while, sure, if you ignore the logistical problems. Its possible. But that doesn't change the underlying calculus- if we are going to ever develop truly long term thinking, and act like this planet is indeed our home, we will learn to live with the flow of energy from the sun, in more or less real time.

Or, we could all start building basement bomb shelters and preparing for the rapture.

Its probably too harsh of me to say you don't understand the basic science, I think your second post shows you do. But being careful with the details is vital in this particular conversation, and in our thinking about it. A couple degrees too hot and our goose is cooked.

[Green Lemon]

e) through gradual attrition. Decreasing longevity, old people dying in the winter, increased infant mortality (particularly in the third world where western governments don't really care what happens, as long as it doesn't threaten them), skirmishes over fuel and water, famine and drought, etc.

Meanwhile the military and economic super powers (same thing really) will suppress the weaker nations and help themselves to natural resources - all in the name of "Freedom".

That seems a little too on the mark for comfort.

Well yeah thats excatly whats happening (option C). Its the prelude to the collapse, at the moment we are pillaging helpless developing nations, and when they are run dry, we'll turn on each other (developed nations) As The populations of each country cry out that they need more Food/Water/Energy, it will be a fuck off war that will be the end of our current cultural ideals. People will emerge from the ashes (as they always do) and go about fucking it up all over again , only this time with no Energy apart from that which nature spits from the sun.

You and I are sort of on the same page. At least the same chapter.

[Green Lemon]

And also, Emissary, you must be aware that you are making the classic Malthusian argument, that Malthus himself was wrong, and that every time in history since then someone has made that argument, they have been wrong. What makes you so fervently sure?

Just because his prediction has not been realized in the past 200+ years doesn't automatically mean that it's not possible that it could.

No shit.

[Slightlydelic]

Haha hoho To be honest, i was trying to debate the issue of the link between over-population and pollution over the issue of CO2, but when you started coming out with ridiculous statements about 'star trek' missions to other planets in the interest of Mining, I thought you must be trolling again so i'd just join in and start being silly just like you.

Yes, i understand your Oil vs Population fairy tale(you could replace 'oil' with 'cheese' and that graph would still make sense ffs), its obvious, however its nothing new, shit, next you'll be telling me we went to war over oil and not the liberation of people.
How are you 'preparing' for the dark ages btw? Stocking up on batteries?
Carry on.

My oil vs population fairy tale? Wow, i dont think i can debate someone who doesn't understand the simplest of simple ideas. Have fun in your magical world of infinite energy and infinite population growth and infinite food. I am preparing by firstly educating my friends and family to the problems coming our way. Secondly I have have been commissioned by the mayor of my small town to draw up an energy plan for the future of the town. I am currently learning about crop rotation from my local victory farmers and trying to get a community run farm setup on my local common ground next to our river. I know its much easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore everything thats coming, but i actually value human life and would like to see people I love survive rather than looking at me with dead eyes as they waste away from under nourishment. Which is exactly the horror you will be facing if you don't wake up to the changing paradigm . You can ridicule me as much as you want, but I am doing something about the state of humanity (even if its a small contribution) Whilst you piggy back on a dying mule that heading straight for a cliff. Carry on

good for you mate, nice to hear of someone being proactive, a lack of oil will totaly decimate our way of life one day.

unfortunalty the majority of the western population have lost the ability to get themselves through that period in history.

[LoopStationZebra]

I am currently learning about crop rotation from my local victory farmers and trying to get a community run farm setup on my local common ground next to our river.

And when the shit hits the fan, the crazies are going march up to you, blow your head off, eat your vegetables, then cut you up into pieces for later roasting over a spit. Haven't you read The Road? ffs.

[Emissary]

I am currently learning about crop rotation from my local victory farmers and trying to get a community run farm setup on my local common ground next to our river.

And when the shit hits the fan, the crazies are going march up to you, blow your head off, eat your vegetables, then cut you up into pieces for later roasting over a spit. Haven't you read The Road? ffs.

haha unlikely, i have already accounted for this.

[stringtapper]

I am currently learning about crop rotation from my local victory farmers and trying to get a community run farm setup on my local common ground next to our river.

And when the shit hits the fan, the crazies are going march up to you, blow your head off, eat your vegetables, then cut you up into pieces for later roasting over a spit. Haven't you read The Road? ffs.

haha unlikely, i have already accounted for this.

So have I.
Except I'm one of the crazies...

[Emissary]

So have I.
Except I'm one of the crazies...

You live in Texas, that certainly is going to be a fun place to be. Ever played Fallout 3