7.1 and 5.1 Surround mixing in live

[jamief]

So it looks likely i will have a number of surround projects to work on soon. I want to ideally work in live and not have to port over to Digital performer or Logic pro etc etc

I have worked out a way of grouping audio channels and sending the outs to the physcial outputs of a Motu travller we have hear that can feed the 8 or 6 speaker's needed to mix in 7.1 or 5.1 respectively.
outs
1. ~Sub - Genelec 7050
2. centre front - Genelec 8020
3. front left - Genelec 8030
4. front right - Genelec 8030
5. rear mid left - Genelec 8020( for 7.1)
6. rear left - Genelec 8020
7. rear right - Genelec 8020
8. rear mid right ( for 7.1) - Genelec 8020

So that is solved. I hope .
System is Genelec 8030's 8020's and 7050 Sub

The more intriguing part is how to get lives arrangment page to behave as a surround panner.

I have deduced at the moment it will be possible to mix in surround fairly easily.
1. The sub will remain constant and requires no real surround panning so that is not an issue.
2. The front left and right when mixing the musical element will only be panning front left and right with that panning haven already been written into the original musical score. That again is self contained and not an issue.
3. When mixing sound fx and foley for surround using lives mixer volume automation and either fading between off and on or fast switching of off and on between my 8 outputs ( in 7.1) will allow me use live as a surround mixer.
4. Speech is also more or less permantely fixed on the centre front speaker. Not an issue hear

Your thoughts please and advice/ expereience would be gladly appreicated ? Are there other alternatives other than my suggestion no.3 above that are elegant, plain and streamlined that allow surround panning within live ?


Lastly surround encoding will be done using an Ac 3 encoding software ( for 5.1 at least).

best
J

[shuutobi]

Someone made a surround panner with channel sends.
Can't find the thread.

[shuutobi]

Had the screenshot saved though.

[jamief]

hey Thanks,
i,ve already read this. I beleieve it was imperfect. I think i will be quite happy to draw in my surround panning rather than using a joystick for controlling. But a joy stick would also be usufeull. Looping sections and drawing surround panning will alow me to tweek it easily - it will running alongside quictime for sound to picture sync.

Any max 4 live patches appearing for surround ?


best
Jamie F

Had the screenshot saved though.

[jamief]

Would like to know more

http://www.ableton.com/pages/2006/user_ ... eattle_1_4

best

[hoffman2k]

Any max 4 live patches appearing for surround ?

Only similar types of workarounds. For example, by using the External Audio Effect, you can output to multiple speakers from the same track. That just leaves the maths for volume automation to be done.

[leedsquietman]

Just use Digital Performer or Logic - if you've got a DAW which supports surround sound natively and does it well, as opposed to some thrown together workarounds in Live, you should use it. It will be seriously more time efficient and easier. I have Cubase 5 and it is just a breeze to work in surround with many great in the box plugins designed for this purpose. (including the convolution reverb reverence having full multichannel surround support and the embracer synth plugin being fully 5.1 compatible as well as your surround panner and mix 6 to 2 etc).

Live is not designed as a music for picture or scoring tool. It does so many things brilliantly but this is not one area in which it shines. Like I could do some things with it's video for example, but why would I bother when a program which specializes in this (i.e. Vegas, Final Cut Pro, etc - in my case Vegas) will enable you to it much more easily and quickly and supports features such as Midi Time Code, SMPTE and all the other sync tools etc.

There are a number of people who would like surround to be incorporated into Live at some point, but most Live users are not using the program to score movies in 5.1 surround and is it really a priority feature for most of the userbase ?

[hoffman2k]

There are a number of people who would like surround to be incorporated into Live at some point, but most Live users are not using the program to score movies in 5.1 surround and is it really a priority feature for most of the userbase ?

You're forgetting the horde of nutters who are hooked to M4L. This merger also brought some people from the Max world to the Live world. And one of their biggest wishes is multichannel audio of which has been said that its being looked at for future versions.
And the biggest wildcard of all.. Robert Henke..
We got M4L because he wanted it. I'm pretty sure he wants multichannel audio for his installation projects too (for which he uses Max).

But its definitely not for anytime soon. Live 10 perhaps. Maybe 9 if we're lucky.
Maybe it sounds farfetched, but with multichannel audio in Live, Jitter and a PS3 cam... One could build a 7.1 holographic mixer when those stereoscopic screens are out.
Not suggesting that is better than the current software that is specialized in surround mixing and video support though. But even with surround support, Live would still be a different tool.

[leedsquietman]

Good points.

As you said, this may be viable in the future and you're correct about the cross-fraternization with Max which could bring impetus to this.

In the short to medium term though, using something more traditionally functional would still be the best option for jamief, IMHO.

[oblique strategies]

This is the post that the images above came from -very interesting:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... t=surround
This post has a good workaround for the problem with fades in a chain not working with the Live External Audio effect.

Here are some additional links (in no particular order) to Ableton forum posts that deal with multi-channel audio:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117148
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95529
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... hilit=quad

[jamief]

Hey guys thanks for all your input. Leedsquietman you may be right i will intially try and make it work with ableton and then transition over. I know i can do it - and i,m pretty sure i can achieve the desired results- the question is can i keep the artisitic flow running smoothly with my ad hoc work arounds.
Will post my results as they develop.


merci

[jamief]

Just use Digital Performer or Logic - if you've got a DAW which supports surround sound natively and does it well, as opposed to some thrown together workarounds in Live, you should use it. It will be seriously more time efficient and easier. I have Cubase 5 and it is just a breeze to work in surround with many great in the box plugins designed for this purpose. (including the convolution reverb reverence having full multichannel surround support and the embracer synth plugin being fully 5.1 compatible as well as your surround panner and mix 6 to 2 etc).

Live is not designed as a music for picture or scoring tool. It does so many things brilliantly but this is not one area in which it shines. Like I could do some things with it's video for example, but why would I bother when a program which specializes in this (i.e. Vegas, Final Cut Pro, etc - in my case Vegas) will enable you to it much more easily and quickly and supports features such as Midi Time Code, SMPTE and all the other sync tools etc.

There are a number of people who would like surround to be incorporated into Live at some point, but most Live users are not using the program to score movies in 5.1 surround and is it really a priority feature for most of the userbase ?

Hi i,m working with a guy who uses reaper for scoring and at the highest indusrty level( A level hollywood) i agree live doesnt shine specifically for scoring but me and this guy talked today and we both agreed that simplicity is beauty and keeping the emotion in music is a paramount- and live has that simplicity - so - i will ltry my best to hold that close- if the interface is simple them my musical expression will come through at its most radiant- So i will persivear.

Best Leeds
jamief

[logicworkshop]

I'm researching 3d audio as part of my MA at the University of Wales, Newport and I've settled on Reaper as the vehicle for prototyping because the routing is so flexible. We're going well beyond 7.1 and need to support over 100 output channels from the decoder plugins we're developing. It would be nice to see the sort of routing flexibility that Reaper has turn up in the next version of Live. I'd love to be able to use M4L with our panning, decoding and virtual acoustic plugins for installations and performances.

http://www.varesesps.com

[shuutobi]

I'm researching 3d audio as part of my MA at the University of Wales, Newport and I've settled on Reaper as the vehicle for prototyping because the routing is so flexible. We're going well beyond 7.1 and need to support over 100 output channels from the decoder plugins we're developing. It would be nice to see the sort of routing flexibility that Reaper has turn up in the next version of Live. I'd love to be able to use M4L with our panning, decoding and virtual acoustic plugins for installations and performances.

http://www.varesesps.com

http://wavearts.com/products/plugins/panorama/

Wonder what this plug would sound like with 100 channels... Isn't that quite a bit overkill?

[logicworkshop]

I guess the only way to find out is to try it...

100 channels overkill? In the final part of my MA I am creating two installations - one for an art gallery which is a 20 channel dodecahedral array with speakers in each corner and the second installation is at a visitor attraction with 5 interlinked 20 channels soundscape zones... Thankfully, all the prototyping is being done in my home studio on an 8 speaker cube