MIDI Volume? Grouping?

[DiamondCasanova]

Hi this is my first post here.

OK .. I've tried tech support, but so far I haven't gotten anywhere.
I'm pretty baffled by this

Let's assume I have a 16-part, multi-timbral, external synth with 1 set of Stereo Analog outs routed into an audio channel in Live.
I would then get 1 Vol slider for this audio track.

How do I control MIDI Volume for the individual parts?
In other sequencers you have a volume slider for a track whether it's MIDI or audio.
Live doesn't give you a Vol slider on MIDI track until there is a plug-in on that track.
This doesn't make sense in the above scenario.

A friend of mine said I might have to "group" the tracks first.

Thanks for your help.

[Rabalder]

What kind of midi i/o do you have on your synth?

[DiamondCasanova]

Well .. it's a Virus TI so it supports a number of MIDI I/O configurations.

The TI has the ability to receive MIDI over its own USB connection or via MIDI cable or as a VST.
I have it set up to send and receive via USB (not as a VST).

The TI can also send and receive it's audio as data over the USB via it's audio outs.
I have it configured to send audio via analog outs.
(Sending & Receiving audio via USB requires assigning the Virus TI VST to a track)

For the sake of this example, though, I am asking how this could be done with any external sound module supporting multiple sounds/channels.
I tried asking tech support for help but he either didn't understand or doesn't know what he's talking about.

On MIDI tracks there is no Vol slider until you assign some kind of audio channel to it (which is totally dumb).
Sequencers from the last century forward have been able to do this with no problem at all and no screwing around .. lol.


***[Computer/Ableton]
___________________________________
--MIDI Track - Channel 1 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 2 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 3 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 4 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 5 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 6 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 6 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 7 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 8 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 9 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 10 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 11 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 12 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 13 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 14 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 15 ~~~~~~>
--MIDI Track - Channel 16 ~~~~~~>
___________________________________
***[MIDI Interface] =====>
***[External Sound Module (Analog Outs 1/2)] =====>
***[Analog Mixer] =====>
***[M-Audio Firewire 410 Analog Ins 1/2] =====>
***[Computer/Ableton (1 Stereo Audio Track In)] =====>

[DiamondCasanova]

I'm afraid this doesn't work.

[jhartford]

An active volume slider wouldn't help unless it could send out midi and somehow know which CC to send. If you're only geting a stereo mix of a 16 part multi-timbral instrument the mixing has to take place within that instrument so you need to work out how to control those internal levels.

There's two ways to do it - one more elegant than the other but also more limiting. First the proper, less elegant way - find out the midi CC number for the patch volume of every one of your 16 voices. Then in the midi clips that you're using to play back the midi for each layer open the envelopes, and adjust the midi CC envelope to the correct level (this can be done in both session and arrange). The downside is you can't assign this to a knob (unless you route the knob with the correct midi CC number directly to the synth and not via Live's midi mapping).

The more elegant solution is use velocity to control volume. Use one of live's velocity effects and group it and map the out high value to a macro (this isn't necessary, but will mean you have an automapped volume knob on each channel if you have an APC 40 or equivalent). Then just turn up velocity sensitivity on the volume amplitude to full on all the layers of your synth. The downside here is that you effectively limit the velocity sensitivity of you synth (but then by lowering the volume of an instrument you kinda do that anyway - eg turn a guitarist's amp down and he has a smaller dynamic range in which to play an still be heard (ie he has to play loud or he won't get heard) - so its not really such an issue).

So yeah, this isn't a problem that "Sequencers from the last century forward have been able to do this with no problem at all and no screwing around .." Its a limitation of multi-timbral synths with limited outputs.

[jhartford]

its late and I'm not thinking clearly (2.20 am in south africa)- the velocity solution will work perfectly but it will also effect the tone of the patches if velocity is mapped to something other than amplitude. So if you have it linked to filter cutoff too, you won't be able to turn the level of the synth layer down without reducing the cutoff - whether that's a problem will depend on how you use velocity

[DiamondCasanova]

Hi Hartford,

Thanks for your reply.

However, I have to say all of this business is totally f##ked and makes Ableton "Live" to control my $2K Access Virus TI completely useless.

MIDI as it was defined in the early 80's already defines MIDI Continuous Controller #7 = Volume.
Controlling Vol with Velocity is not a reasonable solution.

Multi-timbral synth modules have been around since the 80's as well (past 30 years).

Cakewalk SONAR provides a Volume slider for a track whether it's audio or MIDI. (Same for Cubase, Reaper, StudioOne, Logic, REASON)
If you enable Record Automation in SONAR and record slider movements on a MIDI track, it will record MIDI CC #7.
It's that simple. This automation data can be later edited inside the DAW.
It's also useful for just setting simple levels between patches on the same synth.

I should be able to adjust the levels of various synth parts for ANY multi-timbral internal(software) or external (hardware) synth with a volume slider.

Even if I use the Virus TI as a VST, the VST only allows 1 instance, so it's impossible to control the patch volumes also.

This is MAJOR LIMITATION and I can't believe "Live" has gotten to version 8 without someone else complaining about this besides me.
I guess everyone else throws away their hardware synths and just uses Ableton's synths

This should not be such a stumbling block!

I want to be able to assign parts to various synth patches inside of a multi-timbral module, whether hardware or software.
I DON'T want to commit this to an audio track at the outset. Just a way to start working the sounds.
Then, when I'm ready, I'll solo that track and record the audio to an audio track.
But I also want faders for live use.

This is the most BASIC thing I can think of insofar as an Audio/MIDI DAW/Performance Sequencer is concerned ... Lord Almighty!
Anyone would think I just came from Mars.

[longjohns]

there are volume envelopes (cc7) on the clips

does that help?

[3dot...]

..also a 'velocity' device..

[DiamondCasanova]

OK ... clip envelopes is one step closer.

I'm able delete any automation(envelope) already in the "track" (clip) and then drag the horizontal line (no envelope) up and down with the mouse.
This is the effect I'm looking for.

Now .. how do I map a MIDI Controller to MIDI CC #7?

Thanks

(btw: The Velocity Effect is not a real solution. Velocity and Volume are not the same concepts.)

[mode:masters]

I had the same problem with a Novation Supernova II. I use a CME Pro UF5 keyboard which has 8 sliders and a volume slider on it. I ran the midi cable into Supernova then back to my interface using the Thru port, that way the synth and the computer still get the same messages. The keyboard has 3 different modes for the sliders and one of them worked for controlling each part.

So this may not help you much, but possibly a controller keyboard might do the trick, utilizing the Thru port.

Some USB keyboards/controllers allow simultaneous USB/MIDI operation too.

[DiamondCasanova]

This really just boils down to the fact that Ableton needs to put Pan & Volume controls directly on a Channel Strip -- aka "Track" (just like everybody else, software or hardware mixers).

Open up any major DAW and you have these controls. SONAR, Cubase, Logic, etc.

They map straight straight to these MIDI controllers.
If there is automation, the control on the screen moves in sync with the automation. (duh .. Ableton)

[3dot...]

Now .. how do I map a MIDI Controller to MIDI CC #7?

Thanks

just map it to cc 7 (?!)

[DiamondCasanova]

I'm using the APC-40 as my control surface.
It does not yet provide a way to change it's internal mapping.

This is to say faders 1-8 do not correspond to MIDI VOLUME Channels 1-8 but rather some strange NRPN values.

[3dot...]

maybe something like this ?

http://www.asseca.com/nicfit/cc2cc.html