How to record Clip-automation?

[Klinke]

Hi Ableton-community,
i am new to Live8.

My question:
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How do you record automation into clips in session-view?
-----

I have read some posts about it:

-Some wrote, that it is not possible.
-Some wrote: "Just set up a macro and hardware-fader to record movements." (can't get it to work)
-One from Ableton posted a "workaround" with virtual midi-ports and a second track.
(there is midi-yoke on my system, but i cannot record automation--his explanation sounded, like it is just recording into another clip, which does not work--i don't get it)

...That is not, what i expected from Live8.

(The rest of the program was very easy to understand and works great so far.)


----------------
I thought clips are containers for notes and automation which can be filled up "on the fly". With hammering on a keyboard and twisting knobs or moving a pedal.
----------------

(I also have Cubase4Studio)


I hope i am wrong..
Thanks for any help/replies.

[3dot...]

read up on the difference between "automation" and "clip envelopes"
..
in essence..
clip envelopes are relative... to the absolute value (automation/current parameter value)

the options to record absolute automation to clips are :
1 : use the ol' "workaround"...
2 : use vsts which have their own "midi implementation" instead of Lives' devices..

[fx23]

One more that point the illogic nb1 8 years old flaw...

[Klinke]

Thanks very much for the replies.

read up on the difference between "automation" and "clip envelopes"
..
in essence..
clip envelopes are relative... to the absolute value (automation/current parameter value)

the options to record absolute automation to clips are :
1 : use the ol' "workaround"...
2 : use vsts which have their own "midi implementation" instead of Lives' devices..

------------------
To No.1: Could you make a short explanation on how you set up the "workaround"?

----
To No.2: I have Reaktor with ensembles that include recordable faders/knobs +LFO's and envelope followers. Is that what you mean? (i just want to use that for live/sessions)
------------------

Thanks in advance.

[glitchrock-buddha]

You can record midi cc's from hardware, so if you've assigned a midi cc to a VST parameter, then while in record mode, it will record the midi cc values to the clip envelope. The problem with this is this once you've recorded it, you can't tweak that parameter anymore because the manual tweaks will conflict with the recorded automation and it goes all jumpy (recorded midi cc clip envelopes try to take over in an absolute mode). On the other hand when you draw in clip envelopes for parameters directly, you can still tweak the parameter because the clip envelopes affect it relative to the current position.

What ableton needs is a way to record clip envelopes and subsequently have it work relative to the current value (as clip envelopes work now) so tweaks are still possible.

[Klinke]

You can record midi cc's from hardware, so if you've assigned a midi cc to a VST parameter, then while in record mode, it will record the midi cc values to the clip envelope. The problem with this is this once you've recorded it, you can't tweak that parameter anymore because the manual tweaks will conflict with the recorded automation and it goes all jumpy (recorded midi cc clip envelopes try to take over in an absolute mode). On the other hand when you draw in clip envelopes for parameters directly, you can still tweak the parameter because the clip envelopes affect it relative to the current position.

What ableton needs is a way to record clip envelopes and subsequently have it work relative to the current value (as clip envelopes work now) so tweaks are still possible.

Thanks. I will try it. (i hope you mean it will record curves etc., too.)

(Yea, when i can draw it with a mouse, why not with other hardware in the same modus--when i understand it right. )


----------------------
edit:
Great..i still don't understand ..

-how to record an envelope into a clip in session-view.(record-mode? Global record- or track record-button?) There is always nothing changed after recording. In Arrangement it is no problem to record automation(envelopes..). I want a simple midi-overdub with CC-data (hardw. fader/knob, no mouse) in a clip, then be able to drag it from session to arrangement and vice versa.

-how the workaround must be setup


Thanks for any help/further explanation.

[Klinke]

up

[fx23]

that's not possible and that's about 8 years we ask that, just pray for a complete rewrite.

[humnumb]

My question:
-----
How do you record automation into clips in session-view?

You can't.

I know, pretty insane, huh? At least you can draw it in with a mouse though. It's things like this that made me switch to NI Maschine (where you can indeed record automation into clips) and Logic for composition purposes.

[Klinke]

Ableton-team, your professional-coding-knowledge is needed here.


---
At least i have Reaktor..

[vitaminB]

My favourite workaround is this:

Record the automation in arrangement view (records absolute values for the recorded parameter), make it into a new automation lane and copy the same number of bars of automation as there are in the target clip.

Back in clip view, highlight the clip and go the the appropriate automation envelope then paste in the automation.

Now you can play it back, move the automated knob and tweak it some more!

I usually do this on an FX bus track with dummy clips so I don't record over any existing arrangement elements.

B

[oddstep]

It took a couple of weeks for me to realise I was never going to record automation into a clip. The manual is too embarassed to admit that its impossible and it seems like it should be possible with the correct sequence of right clicks and presses of one or more red record arm buttons. Generally I really like the way live's design philosophy intersects with my aesthetic... but the No recording automation into session clips rule still winds me up at times.

[fx23]

that's why i made a new collection of tshirts or stickers:




Print it as a tshirt and wear it at the namm,
or if you are near berlin , please stick some on abes HQ

[vitaminB]

Re: the picture. Harsh but funny! There are still more things that Live can do than not...

In Ableton's defence, there's a serious logic problem associated with recording automation into clips in the way we're expecting it: Moving a given knob is changing its absolute value (A). The automation in a clip represents a percentage of that value (R) with the upper threshold set to A.

Since these two values interact (actual value (V) = A * R/100), it would cause some serious confusion if the same control were used to record both A and R.

Nevertheless, we still want to do it...

Theoretically we need two controls, one for A and one for R. An idea I had is to add value displays to the clip envelopes panel (it needs them anyway!). One that displays R for whichever envelope is currently selected and another showing A. The A display would be non interactive, as it can be controlled (and midi mapped) from the original parameter control. The R control, however, would be interactive and mapping it would create a knob that could record automation into a clip. This would occur in both arrangement and clip views when over record was enabled or the track was armed.

There are a few conceptual problems with using that in a live situation (and midi-mapping conflicts, and with unlinked envelopes) but I trust the really clever interface guys at Ableton to work the rest out

Anyone else got alternative ideas about how Ableton could implement this usefully?

B

[rabouille]

My favourite workaround is this:

Record the automation in arrangement view (records absolute values for the recorded parameter), make it into a new automation lane and copy the same number of bars of automation as there are in the target clip.

Back in clip view, highlight the clip and go the the appropriate automation envelope then paste in the automation.

Now you can play it back, move the automated knob and tweak it some more!

I usually do this on an FX bus track with dummy clips so I don't record over any existing arrangement elements.

B

+1