Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
3phase
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Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by 3phase » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:08 am

I just again had a situation where samplerate conversion was on when it was supposed to be off...


a consitent problem with live , In the nanual is stted that when clip speed and spng speed match the ssamplerate conversion is off.


but ... why is the hi/lo quality button tham making a difference? i switched warp of.. played the clip.. and on again... and the BHD was gone... amd changing the quality button on the clip didnt had any fx.. as it sould be when the SRC (samplerateconversion ) is not active...

before i changed a bit the tempo around..

seems that once you start fideling woth the tempo and therfore your clips (in pitch warp mode ) get samplerate converted.. the clip just stays with samplerate conversion on even when going back to the originak tempo..

this again happened with imported files.. but one 118 bpm session should be as good as the other..or?

How can one assure that the samplrate conversion is really off? do i have to reload the projekt after any speedchange? any better ideas?
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leisuremuffin
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by leisuremuffin » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:51 pm

when you leave the house do you have to wear a helmet and drool bucket for safety?


.lm.
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macmurphy
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by macmurphy » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:16 pm

3phase wrote: any better ideas?
yes. stop using live. it is either beyond you or you have a perennially fucked up system.

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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by hoffman2k » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:04 pm

3phase wrote:I just again had a situation where samplerate conversion was on when it was supposed to be off...


a consitent problem with live , In the nanual is stted that when clip speed and spng speed match the ssamplerate conversion is off.


but ... why is the hi/lo quality button tham making a difference? i switched warp of.. played the clip.. and on again... and the BHD was gone... amd changing the quality button on the clip didnt had any fx.. as it sould be when the SRC (samplerateconversion ) is not active...

before i changed a bit the tempo around..

seems that once you start fideling woth the tempo and therfore your clips (in pitch warp mode ) get samplerate converted.. the clip just stays with samplerate conversion on even when going back to the originak tempo..

this again happened with imported files.. but one 118 bpm session should be as good as the other..or?

How can one assure that the samplrate conversion is really off? do i have to reload the projekt after any speedchange? any better ideas?
1) Edit: Hi-Q button does seem to effect more than just transposing. The info box of that button has incorrect information.

2) Sample rate conversion and warping aren't the same thing. SRC doesn't have any options you can tweak. Warping has a ton.

3) Can you point to the manual section that states that warping has no effect if the Segment BPM of the clip matches the tempo of the sample? I recall reading and even repeating that bit of knowledge. But the only reference I have is Nico Starke explaining this. And I believe that was before Live 8 warping. I definitely can't find it in the manual.
The only fool proof way to have no warping artifacts is playing the sample at original tempo in repitch mode. But there are 2 interpolation modes because of the Hi-q button. The On setting seems to work best.

EDIT: Corrected wrong information.
Last edited by hoffman2k on Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3phase
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by 3phase » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:46 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
3phase wrote:I just again had a situation where samplerate conversion was on when it was supposed to be off...


a consitent problem with live , In the nanual is stted that when clip speed and spng speed match the ssamplerate conversion is off.


but ... why is the hi/lo quality button tham making a difference? i switched warp of.. played the clip.. and on again... and the BHD was gone... amd changing the quality button on the clip didnt had any fx.. as it sould be when the SRC (samplerateconversion ) is not active...

before i changed a bit the tempo around..

seems that once you start fideling woth the tempo and therfore your clips (in pitch warp mode ) get samplerate converted.. the clip just stays with samplerate conversion on even when going back to the originak tempo..

this again happened with imported files.. but one 118 bpm session should be as good as the other..or?

How can one assure that the samplrate conversion is really off? do i have to reload the projekt after any speedchange? any better ideas?
1) The Hi-Q button only applies to the sound quality when transposing, not when warping.

2) Sample rate conversion and warping aren't the same thing. SRC doesn't have any options you can tweak. Warping has a ton.

3) Can you point to the manual section that states that warping has no effect if the Segment BPM of the clip matches the tempo of the sample? I recall reading and even repeating that bit of knowledge. But the only reference I have is Nico Starke explaining this. And I believe that was before Live 8 warping. I definitely can't find it in the manual.
The only fool proof way to have no warping artifacts is playing the sample at original tempo in repitch mode. But that also has its downsides.


are you a newbie? ok..that explains a lot.. anyway.. we have to keep on warning people about the soundquality of ableton life... as long there is no trusty state where audiofiles are played back transparent without beeing samplerate converted..

a buggy mess this program.. a nice toy, but not moore..

and never change your projekt tempo during a session..

thats the workaround.. and better dont import audio from other sessions.. keeop a projekt clean amd tidy..

use abelton preset sounds and plug ins :roll:
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3phase
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by 3phase » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:17 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
1) The Hi-Q button only applies to the sound quality when transposing, not when warping.
not true.. the Hi-Q button is changing the SRC algorythm and transposing and arping are the the same..booth processes need SRC to work..

2) Sample rate conversion and warping aren't the same thing. SRC doesn't have any options you can tweak. Warping has a ton.
SRC has no options you can tweak.. yes..a rather stupid thing to say..the option is HI or lo quality...
And warping needs SRC to work so they come in a package
3) Can you point to the manual section that states that warping has no effect if the Segment BPM of the clip matches the tempo of the sample? I recall reading and even repeating that bit of knowledge. But the only reference I have is Nico Starke explaining this. And I believe that was before Live 8 warping. I definitely can't find it in the manual.
The only fool proof way to have no warping artifacts is playing the sample at original tempo in repitch mode. But that also has its downsides.

first i am using repitch mode at original tempo.. thats what i am talking about that i have SRC on in this situation ... what was clearly prooved when the Hi-Q button makes a differnce.. with SRC off it cant make a difference..

either theire SRC Bug is back or it wasnt really solved and still can appear... i guess the later is true..


And it was in theire audio fact manual supplement.. Do you think they have removed that because they cant garanty transparent audio anymore in L8?

Would explain a lot..

So the audioquality debate regarding Ableton Live ends with.. 1:0 for Villalobos.. it is not good enough to compete with the pro daw´s..

Ok fine.. as soon they dont hide that fact in manual changes and stay to it by anouncing..

using of Live will cause slightly degenerations to your audio because of the involved SRC processes..
So dont use it for mastering prurposes..i am fine..

Becuase thats waht we are used to anyway.. Live was known for its degenerativ soundquality..
I just was trapped with all the promotional talk that stated otherwise..so i thought this has changed and one can use live just as any other daw without degenerating your audio..


Ok.that changes of cause evrything..when its anyway not ment to be a studio daw we also cant expect the syncing to be without fx to the audio quality.. and the midi to be precise..

stupid illusion..that i fel for the promotional talk an really belived it..stupid me..and that after the L8 totaly stable statements from the same source..

sorry guys..i ve taken the toy too serious.. as i ve taken some of you too serious.. the stupid questions of mr hoffman regarding SRC was some kind of outing somehow :lol:
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hoffman2k
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by hoffman2k » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:42 am

Ah that's right. The Audio Fact Sheet point 31.2.3.

You call it an outing. Fine by me. Through the wonders of your communication skills I still have nu clue if you actually understand the difference between warping artifacts and sample rate conversion problems. So fine, insult me. Insult anybody who would even be willing to check things out. That'll speed things up for you.

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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by leisuremuffin » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:55 am

you know what? fuck this guy.
how does anyone even bother engaging him at this point?

he's either a complete and unmitigated asshole or a fake troll.


.lm.
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massenmedium
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by massenmedium » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:56 am

Here's what I think -

Instead of assuming you know and having a go at the guy, if it interests you, why don't you test it out for yourselves?

It makes sense what he (3phase) is saying, it's quite clear. If he's wrong, there's no problem, if he's right it's good that someone should flag this up, no?

I don't have the time or care that much at the moment to test it myself, but I'm not going to discount the fact that it may be doing what he says it's doing without checking for myself. And if it's a simple bug would it not be a good thing to get it noticed and fixed?

And yeah, the point here, if correct, is about possible unnecessary degradation of audio quality.

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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by hoffman2k » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:05 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:you know what? fuck this guy.
how does anyone even bother engaging him at this point?

he's either a complete and unmitigated asshole or a fake troll.


.lm.
Yeah, sometimes I make the mistake of thinking that this is an audio forum where people can engage in a discussion to solve a problem.
But yeah, insulting people instead is always an option too.
My mistake. And I can't say it won't happen again. Its the occasional technical discussions that do lead somewhere that throw me off.

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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by davepermen » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:16 pm

3phase wrote:sorry guys..i ve taken the toy too serious.. as i ve taken some of you too serious.. the stupid questions of mr hoffman regarding SRC was some kind of outing somehow :lol:
so will you leave now and go to "serious business"?

sample rate conversion and warping are different things. i'm interested why you actually use different sample rates at all. all my audio is the same sample rate and bitrate, so no need to ever have sample rate conversion EVER triggered. warping, on the other hand, is used quite often. namely when ever there are speed differences.

but of course, it's all not like that and you're right, and we're all stupid.
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by sporkles » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:54 pm

The Brown-Henke Dither is explained in detail in an eponymous paper published by Misters Brown and Henke in all the
important scientific journals. READ IT BEFORE CREATING ANOTHER THREAD! Honestly.

jonesonyou
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by jonesonyou » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:58 pm

sporkles wrote:The Brown-Henke Dither is explained in detail in an eponymous paper published by Misters Brown and Henke in all the
important scientific journals. READ IT BEFORE CREATING ANOTHER THREAD! Honestly.

Link or it didnt happen.

O wait.....


wrong thread.

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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by cotdagoo » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:30 pm

massenmedium wrote:Here's what I think -

Instead of assuming you know and having a go at the guy, if it interests you, why don't you test it out for yourselves?

It makes sense what he (3phase) is saying, it's quite clear. If he's wrong, there's no problem, if he's right it's good that someone should flag this up, no?

I don't have the time or care that much at the moment to test it myself, but I'm not going to discount the fact that it may be doing what he says it's doing without checking for myself. And if it's a simple bug would it not be a good thing to get it noticed and fixed?

And yeah, the point here, if correct, is about possible unnecessary degradation of audio quality.
I think he should let the Ableton employee who offered to personally visit his studio in his free time to help investigate the issue.. but yeah that among other suggestions always seem to fall flat and be a reason why it can't happen, or why he can't send in his tracks or patches with secret custom sounds to anyone at Ableton to diagnose the issue..

I don't even keep up that much and have seen help basically refused time & time again.. I still think if he's willing we should pool up our cash collectively and buy out his license..

3phase
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Re: Brown henke dither sighting.. what to do?

Post by 3phase » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:51 pm

hoffman2k wrote:Ah that's right. The Audio Fact Sheet point 31.2.3.

You call it an outing. Fine by me. Through the wonders of your communication skills I still have nu clue if you actually understand the difference between warping artifacts and sample rate conversion problems. So fine, insult me. Insult anybody who would even be willing to check things out. That'll speed things up for you.

bla bla bla... as i said.. best is to switch to double samplerate and have live with SRC allways on...

if the abletons like to search for the hidden brown henke dither bug or not.. i dont care anymore..
one time too much the hazzle with changing sounds..
in the end of the day i can still trust my 25 years trained soundengineer ears,..


its not so much like that an SRC electronic hi hat is really worse than a pure electronic hihat,,it dont matters so much on synthetic sounds.. more dameging on natural instrument recordings with natural ambiences..

but its really distracting when the sound of the mix is changeing somehow and you wonder wether you are haluzinating or some settigs have changed.. thats the biggest problem i have with theese random occurances of BHD

but.. just work around it.. Live is a SRC based program.. you cant really avoid it for the most part..so just accept it.. and force it to have SRC allways on..than its at least consistant...

Or just bounce the tracks you like to another DAW and run live as timecode slave ..

So everything that is considred part of the track gets bounced to an external multitrack and live is just the sound design playground..

thats probably the best to have a consistant sound in the mix down AND the benefits of lives abiltys to turn everything upside down
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