Is NI trying to convert us into a product and sell it ?

[3phase]

^ hmmm.. very interesting point.

so what you're saying is; they make you pay... then, and only then, do you get to use the product and gain benefits from it.

now there's a unique concept.







@ Ableton... you free thinking diabolical profiteers you! where do you get these schemes?

as we can see it was absolutly not necessary to sensor me because the ableton user smarties dont understand the point anyway.. you made them just more currious by removing my initial quote

[Khazul]

^ hmmm.. very interesting point.

so what you're saying is; they make you pay... then, and only then, do you get to use the product and gain benefits from it.

now there's a unique concept.

The obvious comparison to be drawn is with Reaktor.

Reaktor basically has two types of content - user community stuff and premium instruments.

With the premium instruments, you have reaktor player - it only plays them and nothing else.
If you want to use the community patches and resources, well then you have to buy the full reaktor.

M4L has no free/cheap runtime only version hat can enable use of community stuff - neither does Reaktor.
M4L actually has no real premium content either - so no commercial need for a player/runtime version.

The only need for a free/cheap runtime/player version of either comes from users wanting something for nothing and compaining loudly when they dont get it - ie the usual bunch of free-loaders.

Now if the full version of M4L came with a bunch of real quality instruments and patches that even come slighly close to what reaktor offers, then maybe more people would buy it. Sadly it just doesnt even come close. Sure Robert henke has added some gems for free download, but they aint in the box and are not seen as part of the value proposition by users.

As it stands M4L is actually a pretty poor investment even thought its cheaper than reaktor. For a pure developer users (ie no interest in community patched) then its too crippled - mostly due to a lame atttempt by cycling to hope that you will pay even more money to them to get full accessable functionality of midi and audio I/O etc.

To my mind its a great concept, but the end result just seems rather poorly executed. maybe reaktor was as bad in its early days as well - I only got it recently as part of komplete. Now komplete to my mind has to be one of the best value for money investments that a producer can make these days at its recent price. M4L is one of the worst and MAX/MSP is far worse. I would say the same is true of Ableton Suite - compared to say Logic Studio 9, it does look very good on paper.

3phase does have a point even I if I dont agree about the validity of a free/cheap M4L runtime - we pay a premium price for relatively crippled and flakey software and content - SSL prices for Behringer quality as he might put it.

If anything I think the premium price should be for the runtime version and developers who get the full version and give to the community should get it for free - punish the free-loaders!

[necho]

^ hmmm.. very interesting point.

so what you're saying is; they make you pay... then, and only then, do you get to use the product and gain benefits from it.

now there's a unique concept.

@ Ableton... you free thinking diabolical profiteers you! where do you get these schemes?

shiiiiiiit......

its..... almost like...... they're a company...... trying to make a profit....

[HeadrickProductions]

To my mind its a great concept, but the end result just seems rather poorly executed. maybe reaktor was as bad in its early days as well - I only got it recently as part of komplete. Now komplete to my mind has to be one of the best value for money investments that a producer can make these days at its recent price. M4L is one of the worst and MAX/MSP is far worse. I would say the same is true of Ableton Suite - compared to say Logic Studio 9, it does look very good on paper.

3phase does have a point even I if I dont agree about the validity of a free/cheap M4L runtime - we pay a premium price for relatively crippled and flakey software and content - SSL prices for Behringer quality as he might put it.

If anything I think the premium price should be for the runtime version and developers who get the full version and give to the community should get it for free - punish the free-loaders!

I still think in the long run (many Many years down the road) MFL will be a great addition. If I were a programmer I'd jump on it. I'm slowly learning reaktor and that is enough for me. If reaktor did not have the user library to explore and learn from reaktor would not be worth much to me. Again the Max community is going to have to really get behind MFL and it will get better with time. Until there are thousands of GOOD devices to play with and learn from it will not be much (no matter how many ad's they put up there about artists using MFL devices). I have not seen anything (besides s4racen stuff) that I really wanted to play with and that could not be done in reaktor. I'm sure there are things but nothing that I need.

Reaktor user library was not built in a year....oh yeah and there is some premium content in the user library

[Sibanger]

M4L is talked down a lot round here.

I am finding some of the devices fantastic, and a great addition to Live.

I'll also say that M4L is really making me change the way I think in approaching a Live set.

The 16 macros (midi & audio) and Kapture are just 2 of the devices that really open the possibilities for live delivery.

It could have been marketed a little better, and a sweeter discount offer to long standing customers would have been great,
but I for one am really enjoying the 'product', and can only see it getting better with age.

[stoersignal]

You all forget that m4l is still a baby. but it grows very fast and well. And sure there are lots of bugs, but with every update they make a big step forward.
and there are so great genious devices on maxforlive.com, things you never could do with reaktor(maybe not so much instruments but awesome Midi and LiveAPI stuff).
it already has changed my way to perform completely, with all the monome patches, advanced midi devices, etc.
before it came out i used logic and sometimes ableton, but since that time i switched to live . now i cant imagine to ever use any other host again.

[synnack]

I think the comparison of Max for Live to Reaktor makes sense when comparing content libraries. That's what started me off on building maxforlive.com in the first place.

But I think there are a few very big differences that get overlooked in these comparisons.

(*) Reaktor has NO ability to control its host via direct API contact. M4L has capabilities that Reaktor, I would argue, could never have unless they, like cycling74, partnered with someone to build that integration. As a product in its current form it is missing an entire feature set that makes M4L so interesting. You may not realize it from using some of the factory content or the maxforlive.com content but so many devices you will think are useful, are using the Live API. Not even possible in Reaktor!

(*) Reaktor has NO ability to render or manipulate Video. There is a ton of cool shit being done with this ability. For example: http://cycling74.com/toolbox/grid-video/

The point has been made that M4L and the content is still new compared to Reaktor and it's true. But what content is coming, I would argue, can't even be done in Reaktor.

Not always apples to apples.

This idea that Ableton is exploiting the community is insane. Ableton is enabling and promoting the community. Moreso than any other vendor I've worked with.

[3phase]

This idea that Ableton is exploiting the community is insane. Ableton is enabling and promoting the community. Moreso than any other vendor I've worked with.

sure. on the basis of an anual fee to cover the costs of the slow slow progress..

[synnack]

This idea that Ableton is exploiting the community is insane. Ableton is enabling and promoting the community. Moreso than any other vendor I've worked with.

sure. on the basis of an anual fee to cover the costs of the slow slow progress..

I think there are legitimate complaints that get lost when people combine them with illegitimate complaints. (not saying you are just ranting).

If there have been stability issues (my install has worked great for a long time) then that is a legit complaint. If there has been an extremely long time between releases with little to no communication on a future version, then that's a legit complaint. Stability, Stagnation. Legit. ("Share" anyone?)

But I think when we combine those complaints with other things that ARE actually amazing, forward thinking, and community-centric we do those legit complaints an injustice.

Ableton Live STILL has many things no other platform has and do a great job at supporting people who get involved. That's a fact.

I"d rather talk about the actual problems and not the conspiracy ones.

[BBR]

m4l is clearly advertized as a means to profit from the free contributions of the max comunity..without the need to be able to patch yourself.
Thats a rather new thing for a program like max... Cant remember that cycling has ever advertized it that way..
The majority of Live usres wont buy max for the possebility to patch..they buy it for the features created by the max patchers.. therfore the patches an theire authors are the product

oooh nooo, ableton is trying to make money off of a product?? those capitalist pigs! You know, if the users actually had a problem with that, then they wouldn't share their devices online. Its that simple. You're thinking is also kind of shallow in assuming that most people will just take the community devices and never dive into the programmable aspect of m4l. Even if I'm wrong, and maybe 50% never actually patch, that's still ok. I would go into buying max today knowing that I could share my devices online, get no compensation, and be fine with that. Communities like that do a lot to enhance the product. You don't seem like you'd want to participate though, and that's fine too.

[3phase]

i havent said that this is a negativ thing, hasnt a capitalism critic in mind, rather a moralic question ..
i just stated the possible point of view that ablton turned the max patchers comunity into a product.. the product max was there before..and therfore the associated user comunity.. in the moment you attach max to live and promote it the ways ableton is doing it they sell the outcome of maxpatching for the program, and not the ability to tweak youself

Not so much words in the advertizing videos how to do your on patches.. just what exciting things the max for live patches can do for you. so the shared patching is a product now..regardless wether this is good or bad..
I can see that this is a promotion factor for the patchers too and cyclig74 will most likely get a share too..
so its not necessarily bad to make max a more popular product.

the thing i dont like with that is that i ve to suffer from the integration even when not using m4l.. And that important functionalty i wished for too might never be realized in the core program when the tandem use with mfl is considered the new standard mode of operation. All this promotion campaigns look a bit like that.

[stoersignal]

if u miss a feature u can program it! how great is that?

[Sepp Ultura]

3phase: It seems to me as though you were deeply discontent with live and the company selling it, judging by the posts by you all over the forums. If you're so unhappy with the product you bought, why don't you just sell it and make some music with software you actually like. If I buy something I don't spend ten years complaining about it but I leave it quickly and use something else.

Don't get me wrong..I'm just a tad puzzled by the war you seem to be leading against Ableton.

[3phase]

3phase: It seems to me as though you were deeply discontent with live and the company selling it, judging by the posts by you all over the forums. If you're so unhappy with the product you bought, why don't you just sell it and make some music with software you actually like. If I buy something I don't spend ten years complaining about it but I leave it quickly and use something else.

Don't get me wrong..I'm just a tad puzzled by the war you seem to be leading against Ableton.

this started with L8.... and as long l8 keeps crashing that wont stop

[Sepp Ultura]

Sure, I'm also experiencing crashes. But I blame it on my rather old machine and my extensive use of third party plugins. Logic has also crashed on me doing pretty much the same thing as in Live.

Of course, Live is a bloody CPU hog. And of course it would be nice if Live didn't crash (btw: Live 7 also crashed). But I'd rather blame my hardware than the software.