the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[trevox]

9V - I see you decided to pick a few posts to answer but still have not answered stringtapper or responded to my post. And by the way, in earlier posts you have said you were not arrogant and in a post to supamonsta you have pretty much told him that he does not write music and suggested that a cat playing a piano or a child doing a jigsaw is the same thing. And you have not even heard the resulting music. You see there is a difference. The cat is not intending on writing music. It is pretty random. I am sure supamonsta's goal WAS to write some music. You have stated on several occasions that music is what is in ones mind. So supamonsta had an idea and executed that idea to create the music he wanted. Who cares what method he used? Apart from you of course.... And if you are going to crap on other people's music, have the balls to post some of your music so we can "judge" you.

And you wonder why people do not like you...

[9V]

i actually don't give a damn of what people here can think about me in terms of "sympathy". I just claim i am not a troll, that is my only complaint, since i never insult anyone and i received warnings for "trolling" by the mods (called by some american users). It is you that misunderstand my opinions: if i write "american foreign policy sucks" you understand "9V mocks americans"; if i write "for me that is not music, but random sounds, a geeky game" you understand "he offends the user" etc. The problem is in you, not in me, then. Try to re-code your input, maybe you'll get the difference between "opinion" and "insult".

And, of course, i never said "music is what is in one's mind". I just say music is a code with rigid rules that must be learnt. Music, like language, when performed must be in real time, being a human language (from mind to action).

My question is: what if this game is played "random" by a child? Is the result "music"? What is the difference between your "music" (...) and the other "compositions", made for instance by other children or by my shecat pushing her claws on the keyboard? I have an answer, of course. Have you got an answer? Who tells you the cat has no intentionality? And the child, for sure, HAS intentionality, so... why the result cannot be called "a
music composition"?

I give you a suggestion to find the answer: "rules". When you can percieve errors (in language or music) you understand the performer is following rukes. Your "music" can't be percieved as music, because it cannot contain elements of "errors" (wrong notes, disharmony, etc.). That is music: the possibility/risk of commiting mistakes. This mistakes must be recognized both by the performer and by the listener (because of the universal code). In your "music" errors are considered "random variation", but in music this is called "improvisation" (when wanted) or "mistake" (when unwanted").

[9V]

regarding your (and stringtapper's) attempt to define "music", i have already answered you: for me that is sound, not music. Maybe interesting, pleasant... but just random sounds, like the singing of the birds, the noise of waves on a river etc. Music is the code, "sound" is a phenomenon (like light, or wind). Your "sound" parameters modifications are a phisical modelled phenomenon, not a musical code. So i don't call it "music" (or i should call "music" every "musically" sound out there, from a telephon ring, to a stone falling, body noises, pop corns in a pan, factories, cars, rain, storms, planes, trains, motors, whistles, drones etc.).

[supamonsta]

"music"? Why calling "music" your geeky game?

because it relies on a midi basis, the rythmic parts are sequenced in the MD and the synth parts in live (midi clips), so it is written, and can be edited. it's notes and time, plus all the informations contained in the .als file, the MD Kits and sequences, the synth patch (I made mine from scratch). And there is also nothing random in it. And I listen to it as music (calibrated simple electronic music). And I can dance on it. And I can play it (well, another debate, lol). I also can transmit it so as someone with other instruments can play or arrange it.. .

so yes I think it is "music", and this is OK with your definition of it. Oh, wait, perhap's your definition of what is music is not strictly technical, but also subjective? I thought you were discussing on a purely technical level...

[9V]

"music"? Why calling "music" your geeky game?

because it relies on a midi basis, the rythmic parts are sequenced in the MD and the synth parts in live (midi clips), so it is written, and can be edited. it's notes and time, plus all the informations contained in the .als file, the MD Kits and sequences, the synth patch (I made mine from scratch). And there is also nothing random in it. And I listen to it as music (calibrated simple electronic music). And I can dance on it. And I can play it (well, another debate, lol). I also can transmit it so as someone with other instruments can play or arrange it.. .

so yes I think it is "music", and this is OK with your definition of it. Oh, wait, perhap's your definition of what is music is not strictly technical, but also subjective? I thought you were discussing on a purely technical level...

if you can write it on a score sheet and define the rules (melodic, harmonic and the time) it is music. You must also contemplate errors. So your "original" way of making music is just what people have been doing since 1500 (tonal music rules).

[lord toranaga]

blah

[9V]

i wrote (not on purpose): When you can percieve errors (in language or music) you understand the performer is following rukes.
I guess everyone here can find the mistake. So is music. The rest is sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe-MIDDfckw

[lord toranaga]

blah

[9V]

i wrote (not on purpose): When you can percieve errors (in language or music) you understand the performer is following rukes.
I guess everyone here can find the mistake. So is music. The rest is sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe-MIDDfckw

THE "CODE" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iLIhLv8LuY

As you can see, same CODE, same music. For Trevox: no code, different "sound" (timbre), two different compositions. Here is their (trevox' and stringtapper's) mistake, musically speaking.

[crofter]

Fuck off 9v you little twat.

[9V]

(hope you listened to the two different "arrangements" of the SAME music...). I hope you understand WHERE is the MUSIC (neither in the violins sound, nor in the distorted guitar noises).

Now i explain you why MIDI is still MUSIC in a sequencer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAWiRylwPjw

(if you don't understand where is the music in this three different videos, just ask me... )

[supamonsta]

So your "original" way of making music is just what people have been doing since 1500 (tonal music rules).

I never said the music I made was original or brilliant either. It's just a simple electro tune on which I worked a bit last night, using midi and audio parts, and some routings and audio modulation (LFO to the filter in ableton live to "wa wa" the bass line, sidechain compression triggered with the MD's kick, etc.)

yes it is tonal (well, kind of limited but still tonal), and yes there is no particular originality there.

but it is music made of midi AND audio. (if I wipe out all that is non-midi in this piece of music, only the bassline midi clip remains, without any sound, so that's what... a 4-bars 4-notes musical pattern... that is not representative at all of the final musical recording...

[9V]

AUDIO is not music, it can't be. MUSIC is the code, AUDIO is a phenomenon.

(fourth of four http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3zANfvo ... re=related )

[lord toranaga]

blah

[9V]

"encore" (for dummies) http://youtu.be/s5F2vYtO8SA

QUIZ: find the music in the last 5 videos. Tell how much "the sound" is important as a "musical code" (from 0 to 0). Explain why MUSIC is not AUDIO.