try to find a pci midi card

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Vresky
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try to find a pci midi card

Post by Vresky » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:16 am

We try to remove every USB device from our live setup ( more than 15 midi controllers/joypads/timecode.. running maxforlive devices in a systemic way )

So im looking for a midi pci ( or pci express ) with at least 8 ins ( probably need two of theses if i dont want to use merger)
it seems that all companys now turn all new midi products to usb. And if usb midi devices work well on mac and linux its a disaster with windows.

if someone here could send some references of midi "non usb" interface that works with win7 could be appreciated.

unfortunately some devices like novation twitch, novation launch pad, stanton sc3 and mixvibes umixpro dont have a real midi out ( i mean via din5 not via usb) i think all theses devices have to leave midi usb and turn HID.
I have some devices ( playstation joypad, joystik and hercules mixers ) that works with HID. its a great protocol cause of better definitions than the 8 bits of the midi, and cause you can disconnect/reconnect on the fly without restarting live.

twisted-space
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by twisted-space » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:49 pm

Vresky wrote:And if usb midi devices work well on mac and linux its a disaster with windows.

In what way is it a disaster?

Vresky
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by Vresky » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:51 am

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Last edited by Vresky on Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vresky
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by Vresky » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:52 am

We experiment a lot of midi driver disconnection on win. It only disconnect for a very short time. but few times a days.
To get the connection back you need to restart Ableton. Its automatic on Mac i don't know about Linux, but i think softwares can catch the driver on the fly "hot plug".
According this poor and unsafe performance for one midi-controler, imagine what you get with tons of theses: the chance that everything could work fine at the same time one hour long is small.

When devices like padkontrol are already more safe via midi to usb interfaces than native usb driver, its even better if we can connect the padckontrol midi out to a pci interface.
the launchpads devices completely stop to disconnect since we change the usb connectors to old db9 connectors on controllers and pc side! Few other still disconnect, but less often.

I don't trust theses midi usb driver, HID could do the job better, and its hot-plug. I experiment these disconnection since years and on a lot of different setups. At the same time few pc musicians told me that they don't have that much disconnections, just few. but most run less devices at the same time.

Maybe i must look about fixing IRQ or priority issues but at my opinion, Windows don't allow the same control for theses points than other OS can do.
Also for audio card, pci or pcie deliver a latency 8 times smaller than any usb/firewire interface. ( 1 ms or 0.5 ms )
it seems that most of manufacturers still build and sell pci audiocards. But midi pci cards are less and less common theses days.

twisted-space
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by twisted-space » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:58 am

Sound to me like you've got a dodgy usb cable or hub/port. I've never had a usb device (midi or otherwise) spontaneously disconnect itself.

hoffman2k
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:57 am

I thought this whole issue has been solved by class compliant devices.
We can use MIDI devices without drivers on OSX and iOS, surely the recent version of Windows have this support too? A quick search on Google seems to suggest so.

Your options to find a class compliant PCI card are pretty slim. Since you'd have to look at mostly discontinued products. M-Audio had a few PCI cards, I think RME had very nice ones. But those are Audio Interfaces with MIDI Support.
Old cards and new computers just don't mix well.

Get a PCI Card with some USB2 and USB3 ports from a brand that keeps its drivers up to date.
Use only class compliant MIDI Devices that don't require drivers and are detected as default MIDI devices.

This is a good list of Class Compliant devices: http://iosmidi.com/devices/

Vresky
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by Vresky » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:30 pm

I dont think its a dodgy cable. I experiment theses disconnections on my setup or others with different gears and computers+good hub or directly to the main board. As we run a lot of controllers at the same time it could be a part of the problem.

Disconnections could have two origin :

Physical: connectors are really unsafe, usb is one unsafe connector in the world. Any other connector could do the job better.
If you buy a brand new usb controler ( with new cable ) you can see that male/female connectors do not really fit together, it move
You just have to play a bit strong on the controller and connectors could move enougnectoh to lose the connection.

Software: the os or the driver or the midi controller firmware is deficient.

I would like to work on both sides. Since i turn all my device to DB9 connectors and provide on this connectors a better energy supply than the 5v provided ( and controlled )on the main-board, i experiment 3 times less disconnections.

About the software part of the job i don't know what to do.
Why mac allow to reconnect devices to ableton on the fly? What could be fixed on windows to be able to do the same?
How can i fix irq and priority on windows? Could it help to prevent software disconnections?

Usb is like pc, its not that bad do do everything but not that good to do one thing in professional way.
Hoffma, i think i found the same as you. And as i have allready a m audio pci card with 1 ms latency, i need now 2 pci 8 midi in interfaces. if i cant found it, i must use 2 8midi mergers and 2 or 2 inputs midi in pci cards. I take a look about class compliant news on Win. thank you

Maybe micro-controllers connected to the computer via rj45 could do the job...

savyurrecords
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by savyurrecords » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:46 pm

I agree with the op regarding midi over usb. Sure, it should work just as good as the old Midi stuff but it simply does not always work as well. I swear the best MIDI interfaces (of Windows at least) are the old Motu 8 x 8 ones that talk via a serial cable to the PC. I know there aren't made anymore but the used market is a possible avenue.

You would of course need a serial port on your PC. Which you still can get PCI cards for. Don't get a usb to rs-232(serial) cable though. I don't recall ever seeing an all in one PCI midi interface.

Good luck

Vresky
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by Vresky » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:54 pm

yes savyurrecords, i was dispointed to see only usb devices theses days at motu.

2 motu 8 8 could be what i need ! i know theses and i trust it. i currently check if it could run Win7

thnks

googoo
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by googoo » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:46 pm

Is this not a usb power settings issue with Windows(7?)? I think even if it's set for high performance Windows sometimes powers down usb ports. There is a way to set it so it doesn't do this.....I found it on one of those sites telling you how to set your PC up for audio - can't remember where though.

googoo
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by googoo » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:53 pm

Here........scroll down to "Disable USB Power Management".......

http://avid.custkb.com/avid/app/selfser ... cId=349411

Or this.........

http://maximumpcguides.com/windows-7/di ... windows-7/

3dot...
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by 3dot... » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:20 pm

Vresky wrote:We experiment a lot of midi driver disconnection on win. It only disconnect for a very short time. but few times a days.
device manager->USB conrtrollers->
now double click on each "USB Root hub".. go to "power management" tab...
untick : "allow the computer to turn off this device to save power"

you're welcome..
:wink:
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3dot...
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by 3dot... » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:25 pm

also..
I'll go on record as saying that I almost never turn off my Midi-controllers(3 of them)..
and have never EVER experienced "disconnections"... (winxp/win7)

and... you might want to have midi-yoke/midi-ox as a delegate between Live and the controllers..
this way.. you only restart midi-ox (lightning fast) and your controllers are back online in Live...
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Vresky
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by Vresky » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:18 pm

hello

thank you. power management was already turned of, and as i take the 5v directly at the power suply there is more Ampere available. since this is already better.

thats a god point for 3 controllers but its 5 time more here :) maybe this is the point here, to much of theses.

what about irq and priority?

3dot...
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Re: try to find a pci midi card

Post by 3dot... » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:27 pm

you have no say in irq and priority
(aside from giving Live "Realtime" priority through the task manager..could cause conflicts)
..they are set by the OS..

as for power..
are all your devices 'bus powered'.. ?
can't you 'daisy chain' the midi from one to the other and save ports?
(15 i/o..30 threads...is A LOT to process dynamically with reliable timing... even for a 4 processing threads cpu)
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