Projector for live performance

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
[art]
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by [art] » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:27 pm

i use abeton and vdmx on one 2011 mbp without any probs running at 720p. 8gb of ram. Snow Leopard. Have probably hit the wall on processing but keep fx and whatnot below that threshold and it holds well. i bought an 'optoma' eh1020 projector. its pretty darn good. its DLP, and I have had problems documenting the shows, maybe a hertz/phase thing, i dont know. fine to take photos but i do end up with some kind of frequency banding in footage when i try and film it. so that would be something i would do if i was checking out test models - take in a camera and film the projector :) otherwise projector central is a great resource

Pitch Black
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by Pitch Black » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:57 am

Hi [art]
[art] wrote:running at 720p... I have had problems documenting the shows... maybe a hertz/phase thing... some kind of frequency banding in footage when i try and film it
I'm afraid I have no idea if thats a DLP-centric issue... anyone?

A question: Is the video camera you are filming with shooting progressive-scan or interlaced?
Just asking because fine horizontal banding can be an artifact of footage that needs a de-interlacer plugin over it...???

Or could you be looking at possibly a framerate or some kind of sync mis-match. Possibly the playback video's FPS could be different to the projector's refresh-rate, which could then be different from your recording camera's FPS...

Hope this wild speculation is err... some help!

So this frequency banding is invisible to the naked eye... but shows up only on some/all video recordings? Screenshot?

miyarakira
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by miyarakira » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:43 pm

Do you mean the scrolling bands of black which show up whenever you
film a scene with computer screens? I always imagined it's due to the
refresh rates of the computer screen (60Hz? and I guess in your case
the projector) and the video camera being out of sync with each other.

[art], thanks for telling me about using Ableton and VDMX on one laptop,
sounds like the same model I have. The Optoma EH1020 looks very nice!
So, you're running it on 720p, not the max 1080p that's possible.

I was curious, this projector isn't short-throw/wide-angle. Do you find
the throw distance acceptable for setting it up in different venues?

simmerdown
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by simmerdown » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:49 pm

(somewhat ot, is there a quality freeware image/texture mapping program like modul8? not really to vj, but for installation art, it can be really basic actually, to be able to project a 'shaped' vid on and irregular shaped surface or object)

miyarakira
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by miyarakira » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:11 pm

simmerdown, I found by chance this free software which might
do what you're looking for:

Video Projection Tool (VPT) 6.0
VPT is a free multipurpose realtime projection software tool for Mac and Windows created by HC Gilje.
Among other things it can be used for projecting video on complex forms, adapt a projection to a particular space/surface, combine recorded and live footage, for multiscreen HD playback, for interactive installations using arduino sensors or camera tracking.

VPT has become a popular tool for theatre and installation use, but is also used by VJs.

miyarakira
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by miyarakira » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:22 pm

[art], here is a possible solution to your problem of
scrolling black bands when filming projections:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question336.htm
To record a computer monitor image, you need to experiment with different refresh rates in the monitor settings or in the host computer software. There are display cards for personal computers whose video drivers allow you to pick the refresh rate. This rate setting may take some experimentation to get it to match your camera setting. If your camera uses 24 fps, use a multiple of 24 -- use a refresh rate of 48 Hz or 72 Hz to get rid of the annoying scrolling bars. Use 640 x 480 mode on the monitor to help lessen the problem.
I know they're talking about monitors, but I believe the
principle is the same for projectors. Can you change the
refresh rate of your projector to match the camera's?

On page 37 of the manual, it looks like you can. In the
projector's settings, under SETUP->SIGNAL, there is an
option for "frequency".

simmerdown
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by simmerdown » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:44 pm

miyarakira wrote:simmerdown, I found by chance this free software which might
do what you're looking for:

Video Projection Tool (VPT) 6.0
VPT is a free multipurpose realtime projection software tool for Mac and Windows created by HC Gilje.
Among other things it can be used for projecting video on complex forms, adapt a projection to a particular space/surface, combine recorded and live footage, for multiscreen HD playback, for interactive installations using arduino sensors or camera tracking.

VPT has become a popular tool for theatre and installation use, but is also used by VJs.
THANKS, looks like that will do the trick!

[art]
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by [art] » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:46 pm

hey guys thx 4 all the advice will give it a shot!

miyarakira
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by miyarakira » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:07 am

Still haven't bought a projector yet, doing further research
to see if I need a short-throw/wide-angle projector or not.
Looks like it might be a Christmas gift for myself. Mm, can't
wait to be V/DJing or is that A/VJing...

[art]
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by [art] » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:13 am

miyarakira wrote: [art], thanks for telling me about using Ableton and VDMX on one laptop,
sounds like the same model I have. The Optoma EH1020 looks very nice!
So, you're running it on 720p, not the max 1080p that's possible.

I was curious, this projector isn't short-throw/wide-angle. Do you find
the throw distance acceptable for setting it up in different venues?
hey there, sorry .. i didnt see this post! yeah running at 720p. 1080 is fine for straight projections or whatever, but if you start running a couple of core apps like Live and VDMX things start to get a little hairy. Also rendered all video clips to AIC which vidvox recommend.

I find the throw distance to be great. It blows up really big. and really bright. I can see why you want to go short throw. It's up to you I guess. Projector Central is really great. Just work out what kind of angle you want with there projector calculator and you can get a bunch of models.

Personally I'm going to do an MBP upgrade in the coming months (16gb ram, SSD) to get even more juice out of the setup.

Now I've bought a projector i'll be honest it doesn't get used much. I don't use it for movies or anything. It's mostly in rehearsel, an art show. I also hire it to people and of course for my own shows. I even took it round the world and used it in shows overseas. Can fit it in a backpack easy enough! I think maybe its a hard market to navigate, with trying them and not knowing. But just go see a few in store and take a plunge on something and you will learn from there, and then you'll have a projector and can stop thinking about it! :)

miyarakira
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by miyarakira » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:52 am

Great, thanks for the helpful input! I'll figure out what parameters
I need on Projector Central, then narrow down from there. You're right,
for a complete new-comer to projectors, it's a big field to navigate in,
and I appreciate all the input here on the forum.

I'm starting to learn Quartz Composer, and VDMX looks like a powerful
software that would be great to get into. MIDI controllers to perform
video projection together with audio, there's so much expressive potential
for a full multimedia experience. And down the rabbit hole I go...

Kevin Hamler
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by Kevin Hamler » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:19 pm

I'm looking at new projectors. I prefer rear-projection with a short-throw lens. It allows me to get the projectors away from the crowd.

Of interest to me are the new LED/laser light-source projectors. The Casio projectors use LED for red and blue, and laser for green. No bulbs, and 20,000 hours MTBF! They're only 3,000 lumens, but I expect brighter LED/laser projectors to follow.

http://www.casioprojector.com/products/ ... row_Models

Note: These are business/education projectors and, as such, aren't very rugged. Careful handling required in club/festival environments...
(The artist formerly known as hambone1)

dysanfel
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by dysanfel » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:53 pm

Here is a pic of me using Live with a projector a few years back. The projector is a cheap, but in a dark club it looks great!

Rear throw projectors are nice, but on a small stage you are pushing your gear forward to make room. If there are other bands gear there as well there may not be room in every venue. You have to be flexible. I use a nice projector stand that gets the projector off the floor and allows it to be positioned correctly regardless of the situation.

Image
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miyarakira
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by miyarakira » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:27 pm

Interesting!

Kevin, I see that LED/laser projectors are superior in many ways,
but a bit beyond my price range at the moment. I'm sure eventually
they'll be made more affordable.

dysanfel, the projection looks great. As you mentioned you use 800x600,
the image looks fine at that size. I take it the projector is bottom center
in the photo. That looks quite close to the screen, and for the size of the
image, is the projector short-throw? Or do you achieve that with turning
down the resolution?

Thanks for the good tip about a projector stand, I'll have to think about that also.

If you don't mind me asking, do you use another software to integrate Live with
video projection?

dysanfel
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Re: Projector for live performance

Post by dysanfel » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:39 pm

miyarakira wrote:Interesting!
dysanfel, the projection looks great. As you mentioned you use 800x600,
the image looks fine at that size. I take it the projector is bottom center
in the photo. That looks quite close to the screen, and for the size of the
image, is the projector short-throw? Or do you achieve that with turning
down the resolution?

Thanks for the good tip about a projector stand, I'll have to think about that also.

If you don't mind me asking, do you use another software to integrate Live with
video projection?
Thank you for the kind words...

I make my .MOV in Adobe Premier and just insert them into Ableton in a audio track. The projector I use was the cheapest Viewsonic I could find a few years back. It is in no way a "short throw". I use lower resolutions to make the images larger in a shorter distance. What you see above is 800x600 at about 10 feet from a projector stand that is about 5 feet off the stage and at middle stage right.

Once the video starts no one is looking at the projector. =)

EDIT: A 50 foot VGA cable helps as well!
Gig Rig - rMBP 2.3GHZ i7, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD, OSX 10.11.x, Presonus FS, Live 9.x
Home Rig - i7-6700k Hackintosh 32GB DDR4, 2nd Generation Scarlet 18i20, ADA8000, JoeMeek SixQ, Live 9.x

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