LIVE 9 : PDC IMPROVED OR NOT ?

[petit nuage]

FULL PDC ...why not after all ?
i use a lot of automations and plugs chains so maybe my way of working is more problematic than your...

[simpli.cissimus]

Here is a post from andy_cytomic on KVR about Live's PDC:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &start=120
(He's the guy who programmed The Glue for Live 9)

Here's what he wrote:
I've just done some investigations in the song position information and automation in Live 8 (which is the DAW that I use and love). I believe that knowing what is going on is always useful, so hopefully this will help you adjust your automation and manual delay compensation so you can get sample accurate results when using Live 8.

I added a 20khz sine wave to a new project and inserted 3 plugins: The Drop then two copies of The Glue, all on the same track. I set up The Drop to use song position information to trigger the synced LFO and make sharp stabs once per second in the audio. The host temp was 120 and I froze the audio and copied it out each time (a very cool feature!) I then moved the position of The Drop to second in the track and repeated, and again in third position.

What I found is each vst / au plugin (not inbuilt Live ones) before the one that needs song information / automation generates a single audio buffer size block of latency, which results in the song position and automation getting passed to the plugin a multiple of the audio buffer size block early. I double checked by setting the audio buffer size to different amounts and repeated the steps.

So the formula is:

song position and automation advance in samples = (number of 3rd party plugins on track before the one that needs sample accurate song pos and automation) * (audio card buffer length)

and if there is extra latency introduced by linear phase oversampling then the formula is:

(edit: in the below, I have changed "audio card buffer length" to "plugin buffer size", which defaults to "as audio buffer" but can be set to something different, so it is the one that is needed for the forumula)

song position and automation advance in samples = (number of 3rd party plugins on track before the one that needs sample accurate song pos and automation) * (plugin buffer size) + (latency of all 3rd party plugins on the track before the one that needs sample accurate song pos / automation)

So if you have sharp automation then you have to delay the steps position by a number of samples that dependends on both where the plugin is in the chain and your audio buffer size, so if you change either you'll need to update your automation as well. I hope that helps!

PS: the automatic PDC in Live 8 works perfectly, it nulls with two tracks in parallel, so any latency introduced by linear phase oversampling is completely corrected for. The above only refers to automation and song position information being sent to plugins (and possibly midi being sent to effects plugins not first in the chain too, but I've not checked into that so I don't know for sure).

This post answered some questions I had and gives some solutions to self-compensate or avoid things.
Seems helpful and may help others here too.

But he also thinks it's over due to fix that thing...!

[leisuremuffin]

@ petit nuage:


no, i understand that. i was saying what do you want in relation to the thread thing you linked?

It's already concluded that there will not be compensation for automation or tempo synched effects in 8 EVER, and 99.9% sure that it won't happen in 9.
but please, go ahead and complain about it, it will help your case for getting it live10 or if you're incredibly lucky 9.something or other.


what live does do correctly now is compensate the audio except in the cases where nobody else can do it either anyway. If people are going to complain, at least complain about the right stuff. i.e. the current issue has nothing to do with "my snare is 5ms off, my hi hat is 7ms off"

[petit nuage]

i ve post it because i ve find that it could interest some people to better know, that a plug in oversampling mode can create a bad compensated latency, so then to choose plugs with oversampling on /off and to work at 88/96 khz and then to have a powerful computer... so tips/ advices to avoid this latency that i was not even aware of and maybe some people too .
and knowing that can change a way of working, so IMO its interesting .

this thread is about plug delay compensation ..and i think its a part of it .
in my view, even it is solved in live 9 its good to know that for working in live 8 and /or with some 3rd party plugs .
but you know that this is a very little part of this thread and that's the main request is about : pdc automations etc
and again thank you very much guys for sharing infos, workarounds, tricks , tips and advices.!

live 10 ? how many years ?
like you said maybe im a dreamer and i should try another daw...THANKS you have just convinced me to try bitwig's daw
of course i will try live 9, and for sure im happy that the native plugs have been reworked to eliminate latency, so i hope, sincerely, to love it ... but without this FULL PDC it makes me a bit nervous.

[ze2be]

i.e. the current issue has nothing to do with "my snare is 5ms off, my hi hat is 7ms off"

LM, that was just a bad way to say that the latency was not floating, but was different for each track. However it feels I get a little latency with Drummax, (as in not pdc corrected) using it for snares and hats, though it might be its because it doesnt have attack envelope. But again: I need to do some proper tests to be sure.

[leisuremuffin]

I understand exactly what you are saying. And a lot of people keep saying exactly that here and elsewhere.. However, that is NOT currently a problem in live. Except in cases where no other daw is capable either.

[simpli.cissimus]

I understand exactly what you are saying. And a lot of people keep saying exactly that here and elsewhere.. However, that is NOT currently a problem in live. Except in cases where no other daw is capable either.

Put up some examples of which DAW, in what situation and the reason that cause this.

This way we can discuss this and maybe learn about other DAW's flaws too.


................

addendum: here is one documented problem of Live's PDC, not happening in other DAW's !
Link to the site: http://www.cableguys.de/faq.html

Here the part that mentions and explains it:
Q: VolumeShaper works fine in Ableton Live when being the only plugin on a track. But it shows noticeable latency in other cases — when there are several plugins on the track, or when used on a group or on an audio track with other tracks routed to it.

A: This is a PDC (Plugin Delay Compensation) issue with Ableton Live. VolumeShaper's LFO is synced to the timing information that is provided by the host. Sadly, Live does not take PDC into account here and thus the timing information provided by Live is wrong. We've already talked about this with Ableton in 2011 and are glad about anyone who bugs them about this issue.

As a workaround, you can use VolumeShaper's oscilloscope to move the waveform to the left until timing matches again (use the left arrow button below the waveform; SHIFT-click for precise adjustments).


........

By the way...: Merry Christmas to you all !!!

[petit nuage]

thanks simplicissimus !

merry chistmas /joyeux noel guys !

[leisuremuffin]

really, are you serious? of course i'm not debating live's problems with automation and tempo sync. I'm simply pointing out that it does not move your kick or hi hat around like some people keep saying over and over and over again.

[hoffman2k]

live 10 ? how many years ?
like you said maybe im a dreamer and i should try another daw...THANKS you have just convinced me to try bitwig's daw
of course i will try live 9, and for sure im happy that the native plugs have been reworked to eliminate latency, so i hope, sincerely, to love it ... but without this FULL PDC it makes me a bit nervous.

I wonder if the Chinese got a word for empty threat that sounds as elegant as Karate.

"I don't like that this hasn't been fixed by version 9, so screw you guys... I'm going 1.0"

Or alternatively:

A plugin developer, a graphics guy and a support staffer walk into a bar and form BitWig.
Punchline coming soon, currently in beta!

I'm a boy and I'm a fan, so knock yourselves out. Consider it my xmas gift to you

ps: If you consider Live 8 to 9 as an anomaly, Live 10 should be here by October

@LM Release the badgers!

Happy Holidays to all!

[simpli.cissimus]

I like Bitwig and I would say it's quite well for a software that started in a bar.
I'm sure it will be too good to pass..., for many here too !

Any audio-format in one project without converting, plus midi and audio on one track too.
Sandboxed VST-Plugins to avoid crashes, is really innovative !
Full PDC... !!!
...and much more...

We'll see who will resist to use it.

If more and more people use Bitwig, then the first ones pushing it will be some Audio-Trainer,
who'll offer courses, samples and sound packs with presets.
Then it will be a blessing for them and a new start-over to make money out of the new Bitwig-Users.

Till then it's a beta-joke...


http://www.bitwig.com/resources/news/20 ... 012-09.pdf
http://www.soundandrecording.musikmache ... wig-Studio

[petit nuage]

@hoffman2k :
change nothing ..you are perfect !

[hoffman2k]

@hoffman2k :
change nothing ..you are perfect !

Glad to hear it from somebody other than myself

Look guys, I'm not baiting. I'm not picking a fight. I'm not saying people shouldn't be aware of this issue. I'm not suggesting that this is a fight that shouldn't be fought. I'm just trying to help. Even though it may not seem that way. Leisuremuffin is doing the same.
Its not a fanboy convention, its not having a go at the "n00bs" and its definitely not meant as disrespect.

I'm in a bit of a unique position to argue that Ableton listens and feels our pain. My feature wishlist only relates to the API anymore and recent digs in the code by some of the Live 9 beta testers reveals that half of my wishes are already there. Though Push was a first clue.
I've gotten everything I asked for and got every bug I discovered fixed, except for one. A fight that is still going on. But you won't read about it here.

While it may feel like you're fighting a company on an issue they seem to ignore you on. In reality you're fighting people who are fighting the same fight for you.
Before the metaphors get any more out of control: The people at Ableton use Live too!
Interpreter that in any way you choose. You can't possibly deny that those "users" want the same as you.

Why hasn't it been done yet? Why did they "waste" their time on improved effects?
Or the other way to look at it: "Hmm, looks like the effects got a serious upgrade. They're going full DAW on our asses."

Which brings us to PDC. Its inevitable. Its obvious that it is inevitable.
They haven't announced anything yet. They haven't hinted at it. They won't make a peep about it.
If history has taught us anything, that is a full on confirmation that they are working on it.
Here's where the fanboy starts to creep in. I can sense this is the truth, I don't need it to be confirmed. I feel it in my gut and as Colbert rightly points out, that is all that matters. Its faith.
I'm not a religious man, but I believe in Ableton. Even though I've been fighting them on a silly bug for 2 years now. They forked up everything else I wanted.

And for all the Bitwig jabs. I don't disrespect the guys working there. Dom is one of the most awesome people you could ever meet. Those 3 delay modes we got in Live 8? I "bribed" Claes for it with a box of Belgian beers. I made a point, he agreed. I made an offer, he agreed. A week later we had these 2 awesome new delay modes that didn't cause clicks. So I got much respect for Claes too.
But a 1.0 will never draw me in again, however awesome it seems.
I'm a guy who compulsory reports his bugs and am at a ninty-something percent success rate with that.
Now that Live is about as stable as I could hope for, it would be a waste of nearly a decade of working on making it work. Now all I need is Push and a longass vacation. And then GTA 5 along with another long vacation...

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"Tis the    season to be  jolly, fa la la    la  la la la    la     la"

[petit nuage]

i was kidding
and of course , we are all here because we love live ...it so obvious for me that i even dont understand fanboy or hater concept .
maybe its the local folklore after all... ( scary ...)

[simpli.cissimus]

Aim shoo drank...

Noo PeeDeeCee prrobblemmz heare, anymore !

Meerie Chrizzmaz and a booddle of beear...

Sheemz I found a wayh four a PDZ-figgz