Please Ableton, don't remove any more existing functionality

Share your wishes for the future of Ableton Live
jtpack
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Post by jtpack » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:10 pm

I was going to post about the preset browsing too. I have a bunch of Live 4.x.x presets that I'd like to have access to without having to move them.
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:15 pm

jtpack wrote:I was going to post about the preset browsing too. I have a bunch of Live 4.x.x presets that I'd like to have access to without having to move them.

Weird!! All of my old presets showed up in 5 automatically!

Guess i'm the only one who likes the new preset system better. I really like being able to organize my presets by folder and being able to call up an effect with my preset right away.


-lm
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:26 pm

I like it, I think it's better than a list pop-up.
but I also think there is room to keep a forward and back button and name of preset on the plug-in top bar.

melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:07 pm

I don't understand why we can't keep the new preset organization over in the plugin browser but also get something like this back onto the plugin itself:

Image

quandry
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Post by quandry » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:25 pm

melocoton--I think taking the browser scenario for presets introduced in 5, then replicating them as pop ups within pop ups from the effect module is not what we are asking for--it is too cluttered and obscures much of the screen. What we want is both the new 5 browser scenario AND the old way where you get one small pop up with a list of presets. Maybe for those that have MANY presets organized as you have shown, Ableton could make it so that you can drag a folder from the browser to the appropriate effect/instrument preset box. Say you had tons of operator patches organized like you've shown, you could drag just the acoustic bass patches, or all of the patches from the bass folder in the browser and drop the folder on top of the preset box in operator. This would then allow you to access any of the presets in the folder you dragged, but not the 753 operator patches you've created. Seems like this could be a cool way to integrate new and old ways of working, keep everyone happy, and allow you to have effect and instrument instances with specifically filtered presets instantly selectable from the old-style preset menu--in this case your operator would be on you "bass" channel in your set, with presets ready to use at one click and minimal scrolling, as opposed to either lots of scrolling (when using tons of presets) the old way, or lots of scrolling and clicking and browser resizing the new 5 way. The main issue here is LIVE performance use of Live, the new 5 scenario is NOWHERE near as quick an instantaneous as the old preset scenario in 2-4, which is great for performance--you look at the effect or instrument and know what patch you're on. The new way makes it a guessing game, not good on stage, and changing presets requires much more attention and mousing than the old way, for me at least.

Ryan
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melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:27 pm

I don't see how the typical pulldown folder-within-folder concept is cluttered. You would create those folders yourself. So if you just want a bunch of loose presets in a row you simply wouldn't create any folders and the preset menu would look identical to the old version with an additional "New Folder..." selection.

The point is to give us some flexibility in how we organize and view the presets so that each person can customize their setup to their own working methods. Have you tried installing any of those free presets (Livepack or whatever they're called)? You end up with a massive, unmanageable list of presets that aren't organized into any folders at all. The new situation gives us better organization but breaks the old pulldown menu paradigm. I think what we all want is something in between that combines the strengths of both approaches and yet allows each individual user to ignore the new methods if they don't like them.

quandry
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Post by quandry » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:20 am

melocoton wrote:I don't see how the typical pulldown folder-within-folder concept is cluttered. You would create those folders yourself. So if you just want a bunch of loose presets in a row you simply wouldn't create any folders and the preset menu would look identical to the old version with an additional "New Folder..." selection.

The point is to give us some flexibility in how we organize and view the presets so that each person can customize their setup to their own working methods. Have you tried installing any of those free presets (Livepack or whatever they're called)? You end up with a massive, unmanageable list of presets that aren't organized into any folders at all. The new situation gives us better organization but breaks the old pulldown menu paradigm. I think what we all want is something in between that combines the strengths of both approaches and yet allows each individual user to ignore the new methods if they don't like them.
cluttered in that, like your made up screenshot, the pop up windows cover other parts of the interface you might want to look at in a live situation. You seem to agree the old way was useful, don't you think having that and the browser folders interact the way I described above be a good compromise? I think, given the course of ableton I've watched since version 2, I doubt you'll ever get anything like your screenshot. They avoid pop ups where they can, and when they give them, I can't think of one where there are mutiple boxes (other than rendering and saving). In fact, they took away the preset pop ups to move it all to the browser. Having these presets back with the effects is the main point.
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Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:49 am

how about an alternative:

as there are probably only a few presets we are switching between in each live situation ...and the old method wasnt the best either ...

why cant we just assign presets to clips / scenes?

need the preset called "ambient jazz bass 31" on your moog-a-like and 'orchestral string section 2002' on your sampler , thats two twiddly changes to make at one time under strobe lights and fog.

it would be much better to change the presets beforehand and record those jumps into a clip and call that 'middle section' which changes all patches at once. press the clip .. instant patch setup.

melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:40 am

quandry wrote:the pop up windows cover other parts of the interface you might want to look at in a live situation.
They're not popups, they're just menus and they would only be up for a second while you select your preset. It's the same way every modern OS and every other program in the world work.

Admittedly, they're never going to use the default OS menus like I used in the image (though I think they should). But picture what I did in the old grey and black, tiny text Ableton style and it's really not that much of a change from what was there before.[/quote]

melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:41 am

In other words, if you're on a PC, my image might look weird to you since it's the standard mac menu interface, but if it were the windows equivalent look (or the old ableton menu look) you would understand what I'm talking about. It's common and ubiquitous and using it would be like second nature.

quandry
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Post by quandry » Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:08 pm

dude, I know what macs look like. I understand exactly what you are talking about, I can read and even look at pictures, I can even spell my own name. Geez, give a brother a bit of credit. Apparently you don't really care to fully read my posts, or haven't been with Ableton since version 2. When they implement anything remotely like that, I will gladly buy you the upgrade to the version that has it, cause its never going to happen. Just in case you hadn't noticed, what makes ableton special amongst music software is that it was concieved with live performance in mind (hence the name), and the interface design is as streamlined and ever-present as possible to facillitate real-time live use. Saying that "every other program in the world" works this way means diddly--the whole point of Ableton Live is that, thank God, its not like all the other musical software out there. They have purposely gone a different route in the design of their app, and one of the key mantras is keeping the interface uncluttered and to have as much as possible visible at one time, which inherently means avoiding pop-ups. Sorry I don't like your idea, and you're welcome to not like mine, guess we'll leave it up to Ableton. Mine at least keeps the streamlined nature of previous versions while allowing it to interface with the new browser and folders. Your screenshot simply replicated the whole browser folder-within-folder thing, but spills it all over the page. Ableton seems to NEVER have the exact same feature in two places at once, again its a part of their design philosophy. So they're not pop ups???? They are boxes that aren't a part of the interface that come out of nowhere--they "pop up" out of thin air and cover important parts of the interface, sounds like pop ups to me. Semantics and pc user dissing aside, again the main issue is we want to see the presets next to th effects/instruments.

Ryan
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ultrasource
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Post by ultrasource » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:44 pm

Having presets in the file browser sucks and it will keep me from upgrading. Simple as that. Damn shame because beat repeat and saturator are fun to play with.

duncjam
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Post by duncjam » Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:46 pm

I have to add my voice to the protests about the new method of preset browsing.

I only recently downloaded the public beta and I was so disappointed (after I finished being simply disorientated!) by the fact this was changed. I almost reported it as a bug!

Ableton should at least give us the option to choose which style we prefer. Even if the new one is better, the previous one is how many people are surely used to working.

When I first read about the new features in Live 5, I thought it would be a dead cert that I would upgrade, but this is such an unnecessary change, I'm wondering now if I feel like spending the money.

dunc

melocoton
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Post by melocoton » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:07 pm

quandry wrote:They have purposely gone a different route in the design of their app, and one of the key mantras is keeping the interface uncluttered and to have as much as possible visible at one time, which inherently means avoiding pop-ups.
I don't understand why you keep talking about clutter. If you're opening up a menu to select a new preset, that's really all you can do at that moment. It's not like you can select a new preset while simultaneously firing off a new clip or something. Your mouse can only be in one place at a time. So while you're selecting a preset, sure the menu covers things up but that's OK because it's all you're looking at! And then when you click on the preset you want it goes away like magic!

quandry wrote:They are boxes that aren't a part of the interface that come out of nowhere--they "pop up" out of thin air and cover important parts of the interface, sounds like pop ups to me.
Um, yeah. You mean like the old preset menu (popup) that you want back? That comes out of thin air and covers up part of the screen too does it not?

telekom
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Post by telekom » Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:18 pm

I'm not fond of effect preset browsing in V5 either. I think if you've got loads of samples and tracks all over your browser it would be easier to have your effect presets where you won't get them lost - with your effects...

But it might just take some getting used to. It certainly wouldn't stop me from upgrading as others have said.

I think we give Ableton a lot of credit by always saying "they could give us the option of this or this or this..." but it also shows very high expectations of the poor souls - that they could ever fulfil all the tiny details we would like. Let's just be grateful that Live isn't Cubase. :) If we got the option to have everything it would leave the program potentially very buggy, impossible to test (as no-one would have the same set of options/OS/Controllers/Soundcards etc) and very probably BLOATWARE...

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